J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

[Player99]

If your "experts" are like David Axe, they make money like all authors, telling the readers what they want to hear, within our own DOD, there are people who "know" the specs on all these birds and could likely tell you the length and breadth, thrust to weight ratio, and within reason which bird has the advantage in which area, and also where the weaknesses lie. The one real lie in topgun, is that the Defense analysts were'nt properly informed, they are, and while everyone gets a "surprise" once in a while, the Chinese, Russian, US and allies bright boys work with and for our respective DODs! Brat

I believe so!

And, Brat, I should probably rephrase my words like this: And to me, some of these "experts" are either downright idiots or they tried so hard to behave like idiots for their reasons.

Honestly, with my background, I know that some experts are not real smart persons or not really knowledgeable enough, as laymen think, in their professed field of expertise at all.

 

[Player99]

"Nobody" is really concerned with the J-20s pitot tube, we are talking airframe to airframe!

Hehe, he was just mocking at Mig-29, the latter added two meters to the length of the J-20 with the pitot...

 

[MiG-29]

Hehe, he was just mocking at Mig-29, the latter added two meters to the length of the J-20 with the pitot...

when aircraft are measure are measure with pitot tubes, (however sometimes the exclude the pitot tube but most of the time they let know the reader) in fact if Su-27 is measured without pitot tube then with it it most be 22.4 meters, and this will make even bigger the J-20 but the most likely is that 21.9 includes the pitot tube.
2001 has a probe of around 2 meters 1.8 or 2.2 meters add that to your 20.7+ or - meters you get easily 22 or more meters, however remember the west made an approximation.

2001 also has a probe fitted in a way only a part is ahead of the radome, so a 22+ meters length is plausible.


most western or Russian sources gave a 21-23 meters length
Chengdu J-20 (J-XX) представляет собой большой (длина 21-23м) и тяжелый (взлетный вес 35-40 тонн) истребитель схемы "утка

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The size of the J-20 seems to be around 21 meters something between 20.5 and 21.5, all these pixels are difficult to see where a fighter starts and ends and most western or Russian estimates gave a 21-23 meters length.

Which is pretty accurate considering here many were saying it was 19.5 meters

 

[Deino]

when aircraft are measure are measure with pitot tubes, (however sometimes the exclude the pitot tube but most of the time they let know the reader) in fact if Su-27 is measured without pitot tube then with it it most be 22.4 meters, and this will make even bigger the J-20 but the most likely is that 21.9 includes the pitot tube.
2001 has a probe of around 2 meters 1.8 or 2.2 meters add that to your 20.7+ or - meters you get easily 22 or more meters, however remember the west made an approximation.

2001 also has a probe fitted in a way only a part is ahead of the radome, so a 22+ meters length is plausible.

YES, but again please show us a 2m long pitot probe on any of the J-20 prototypes !! 2001 has one, but surely not a two meter long one and 2002 has an even shorter one with a serial version most most likely without one ... final concusion: the J-20 will never be that long even if You would like to be so !

most western or Russian sources gave a 21-23 meters length
Chengdu J-20 (J-XX) представляет собой большой (длина 21-23м) и тяжелый (взлетный вес 35-40 тонн) истребитель схемы "утка

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The size of the J-20 seems to be around 21 meters something between 20.5 and 21.5, all these pixels are difficult to see where a fighter starts and ends and most western or Russian estimates gave a 21-23 meters length.

Which is pretty accurate considering here many were saying it was 19.5 meters

MiG-29 NO ... PLEASE, You can tell us all Your opinion but please leave this "I'm correct, since most Russian sources say so !" ... They are simply WRONG, plain WRONG and to repeat that false estimation doesn' make them correct. As such we all know - even if it is well beyond my imagination - that in Your opinion the J-20 is longer, but please leave us our opinion, especially since it is better proven by facts !

Deino

 

[MiG-29]

YES, but again please show us a 2m long pitot probe on any of the J-20 prototypes !! 2001 has one, but surely not a two meter long one and 2002 has an even shorter one with a serial version most most likely without one ... final concusion: the J-20 will never be that long even if You would like to be so !




MiG-29 NO ... PLEASE, You can tell us all Your opinion but please leave this "I'm correct, since most Russian sources say so !" ... They are simply WRONG, plain WRONG and to repeat that false estimation doesn' make them correct. As such we all know - even if it is well beyond my imagination - that in Your opinion the J-20 is longer, but please leave us our opinion, especially since it is better proven by facts !

Deino

i said aproximation, most sources i quoted are saying aproximation, you an me are doing the same we are doing approximations, no one is here right and that includes you and me until Chengdu releases the dimensions, the source i quoted i said gives an aproximation.

When Chengdu releases the dimensions all the guessing will finish, but now is most of wishful thinking where people calculates pixels in the way it fits their point of view.


We can simply drop the argument and wait for Chengdu to release the facts.
But until that happens we should simply respect we hold different views.

 

[Deino]

i said aproximation, most sources i quoted are saying aproximation, you an me are doing the same we are doing approximations, no one is here right and that includes you and me until Chengdu releases the dimensions, the source i quoted i said gives an aproximation.

When Chengdu releases the dimensions all the guessing will finish, but now is most of wishful thinking where people calculates pixels in the way it fits their point of view.


We can simply drop the argument and wait for Chengdu to release the facts.
But until that happens we should simply respect we hold different views.

Agreed, but honestly it can't be 23m if all images say different and what You mean with approximately is useless here IMO since we can already say it is definitevely shorter than 23m simply if You lay a 23m long barn besides the image... as such Russian sources can say what ever they want, that doesn't makes 23 m shorter or the J-23 longer.

Anyway ... we simply have different opinions.

Deino

 

[Engineer]

when aircraft are measure are measure with pitot tubes, (however sometimes the exclude the pitot tube but most of the time they let know the reader) in fact if Su-27 is measured without pitot tube then with it it most be 22.4 meters, and this will make even bigger the J-20 but the most likely is that 21.9 includes the pitot tube.
2001 has a probe of around 2 meters 1.8 or 2.2 meters add that to your 20.7+ or - meters you get easily 22 or more meters, however remember the west made an approximation.

2001 also has a probe fitted in a way only a part is ahead of the radome, so a 22+ meters length is plausible.

Nobody cares about the pitot tube. The pitot tube is not a permanent structure and does not count toward the length of the aircraft

most western or Russian sources gave a 21-23 meters length
Chengdu J-20 (J-XX) представляет собой большой (длина 21-23м) и тяжелый (взлетный вес 35-40 тонн) истребитель схемы "утка

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The size of the J-20 seems to be around 21 meters something between 20.5 and 21.5, all these pixels are difficult to see where a fighter starts and ends and most western or Russian estimates gave a 21-23 meters length.

Which is pretty accurate considering here many were saying it was 19.5 meters

Most Western and Russian sources do not know what they are talking about, consequently these sources are just opinions and have little basis in facts. This is especially true for Russian sources like the one you have used. People on this forum are experts in comparison.

In any case, the most recent satellite imagery shows the J-20 to be equal or slightly shorter than a J-15. Since we know J-15 is the same as Su-33 with

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, we know J-20 cannot be longer than 21.19 meters. It is that simple. One thing is certain, and that is J-20 is clearly shorter than J-11/Su-27. This confirms a post I made this Janurary, in which I also estimated the J-20 to be 20m to 21m in length.

Tags: Chengdu; China; J-10; J-11; J-20; Imgur; length comparison; satellite images; satellite photos;

 

[Speeder]

@Mig 29, I appreciate your posting here for the fact that it’s always good to have different opinions. It helps to stimulate and bring out some awesome and balanced analysis.

That said, being around for some years I've noticed that most analysis/predictions in this site on Chinese gears, being warplanes, ships, missiles, etc., have been proven leagues ahead of some reputed professional Western major sources (e.g. Janes, Aviationweek, etc.) on accuracy by the facts revealed months or even year/s later, while major Russian sources on Chinese mil gears have been proven time and again amongst the worst if you care looking up the record.

The reason for that is quite simple:

i) most analysis here come directly from the 1st hand Chinese sources, with many from timely feed on major Chinese forums backed up by the results of 100s if not 1,000s heated posts, some of which being either down right insider info or time-proven superb analysis by frontline pros.

ii) most of Chinese posters here are enthusiastic and quite objective overall IMO, dedicating hours and hours on major stories, and

iii) the average IQ of the Chinese here are, at least, about 120 ( reasonablely assuming that most are university grats, with some obviously having advanced post-grad degrees in different fields).


Compare these to what contribute to a standard Russian source, from a newspaper or website, which on average is


i) made up from the 2nd , 3rd or 4th hand sources/hearsays (few straight from the Chinese),

ii) by reporters who are not say die hard fans of Chinese hardware, including the scources they cite, one can sense, writing a 5 mins long related story if he is lucky enough to have avoided some layman military mistakes which are commonplace, before marching on to the next story…and

iii) with average IQ of 100, to be optimistic, citing sources of "Pinkov alike expert X or Y" whom every country have truckloads, usually are more biased than bright and are discredited many times over.

Now, track records aside, which side is more credible to you under normal circumstances?

 

[paintgun]

Agreed, but honestly it can't be 23m if all images say different and what You mean with approximately is useless here IMO since we can already say it is definitevely shorter than 23m simply if You lay a 23m long barn besides the image... as such Russian sources can say what ever they want, that doesn't makes 23 m shorter or the J-23 longer.

Anyway ... we simply have different opinions.

Deino

Many of us here on SDF, throughout the lengthy J-20 threads and its descendents, have made our own measurements and put it out to see, and i suspect many others have pulled out their photoshop rulers, do their own measures, and keep the finding to themselves.

The results, whether using overhead satellite photos, or near identical side angle pictures, hover around the 20.3m - 20.6m number, which means our margin are within centimetres, not metres.
Which also means another thing, i believe it's like something called statistic sample convergence.

While Mig-29 with his 2m pitot, is that lonely 23m dot.

 

[AssassinsMace]

This is the latest written on Huitong's site.

Currently the third prototype (2003?) is throught to have been built and is preparing for its maiden flight. There were rumors that the 03 prototype will feature certain "major modifications" but no details are available.