J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

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rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Our invaluable escobar posted this in the carrier thread.


Doesn't this back to back win by CAC and 611 indicate that the flight-testing of J-20 is progressing well?

Also there is another article/rumour in the chinese forums claiming there are actually 4 J-20 prototypes flying:
2 2001 - one actually produced in 2010 and the "official" 2001 in 2011.
2 2002 - both produced in 2012.
Static J-20 was only produced in mid 2012.
Pre-serial production run of 4 per year already underway in 2013.
A two-seater J-20 is planned.

Interesting. franco-russe will probably love the article. Complete with charts in excel format.

Don't think that the Chinese will pre-serial produce this aircraft without indigenous engines (WS-15) and it seemed that this engine is not ready, unless the Chinese wanted to go along with the AL-31 or WS-10A (which might make the aircraft underpowered and without supercruise capability).
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Our invaluable escobar posted this in the carrier thread.


Doesn't this back to back win by CAC and 611 indicate that the flight-testing of J-20 is progressing well?

Also there is another article/rumour in the chinese forums claiming there are actually 4 J-20 prototypes flying:
2 2001 - one actually produced in 2010 and the "official" 2001 in 2011.
2 2002 - both produced in 2012.
Static J-20 was only produced in mid 2012.
Pre-serial production run of 4 per year already underway in 2013.
A two-seater J-20 is planned.

Interesting. franco-russe will probably love the article. Complete with charts in excel format.

Pre-serial production in 2013? Gosh I hope not.
 

rolking

New Member
Sorry, my translation isn't good enough. :eek:

I guess the author of the article/rumour probably meant small production-run of 4 more flight-test J-20 per year based on mass-production model, not pure prototype engineering test plane (Gong Cheng Yan Zeng Ji) like the 2001s and 2002s. So the total number of flight-testing J-20 will increased to 8 by 2013-2014, similar to the development pattern of J-10.
 

Inst

Captain
F-22 minimum RCS is 0.0001m^2, about 1/8th the .1 RCS detection range.

Having a 450km detection range suggests you're operating an X-band radar, especially if you're doing first/second generation AESA, not L-band, so there's no reason to think the J-20 AESA in its present incarnation is powerful enough to engage the F-22 at extreme BVR ranges.
 

Lion

Senior Member
Don't think that the Chinese will pre-serial produce this aircraft without indigenous engines (WS-15) and it seemed that this engine is not ready, unless the Chinese wanted to go along with the AL-31 or WS-10A (which might make the aircraft underpowered and without supercruise capability).

How can we be sure the engine now running on J-20 is not WS-15?
 

Hyperwarp

Captain
How can we be sure the engine now running on J-20 is not WS-15?

Core of the WS-15 was for the very first time officially showed in 2010 -
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(Don't know the exact airshow/exhibition but probably Zhuhai). You'll notice the timeline for other engines as well. This is consistent with what one of our forum members 'maya' said. He said testing of the 'core' including high altitude testing (probably on that Il-76 engine testbed) were completed successfully in 2009. Maya also said going from the 'core' to the final WS-15 production ready variant could take as much as 10 years. If all goes perfectly well maybe a few years early. Even if we take 7 years that'll be around 2016.

In any-case, the question is, would PLAAF/CAC risk putting a WS-15 on a J-20 at this moment?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Core of the WS-15 was for the very first time officially showed in 2010 -
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(Don't know the exact airshow/exhibition but probably Zhuhai). You'll notice the timeline for other engines as well. This is consistent with what one of our forum members 'maya' said. He said testing of the 'core' including high altitude testing (probably on that Il-76 engine testbed) were completed successfully in 2009. Maya also said going from the 'core' to the final WS-15 production ready variant could take as much as 10 years. If all goes perfectly well maybe a few years early. Even if we take 7 years that'll be around 2016.

In any-case, the question is, would PLAAF/CAC risk putting a WS-15 on a J-20 at this moment?

I take all those prediction with ton of salt. Nobody can forecast that far in the future and who is this guy Maya other than forum participant He is not God by any mean.

He might have connection or relative in Gas turbine research but most likely low level connection
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I take all those prediction with ton of salt. Nobody can forecast that far in the future and who is this guy Maya other than forum participant He is not God by any mean.

He might have connection or relative in Gas turbine research but most likely low level connection

Maya was a really trusted sources who doesn't seem to visit anymore. He flagged a lot of the activity on the Taihang for us that ended up being very accurate.
 

Engineer

Major
F-22 minimum RCS is 0.0001m^2, about 1/8th the .1 RCS detection range.
Right. Every few years, an extra zero gets placed in the RCS figure. I can tell you right now that 0.0001 m[sup]2[/sup] is about the area of your thumb. Even with stealth, that figure is out of proportion to the actual size of the aircraft.

Having a 450km detection range suggests you're operating an X-band radar, especially if you're doing first/second generation AESA, not L-band, so there's no reason to think the J-20 AESA in its present incarnation is powerful enough to engage the F-22 at extreme BVR ranges.
This statement makes little sense. First being that X-band and L-band refers to the operation frequency of the radar, not power. Second being that the text within the pictures only mentioned detection, with no claim made on tracking or engage.

With regards to the generation of the radar, the pictures suggested the AESA with 280 km range is China's second generation AESA radar. Third generation AESA radar with more advanced and numerous T/R elements will mean an increase in detection range.
 

Inst

Captain
Radar systems use a variety of different radar frequencies; higher frequency radar tend to have finer resolution than lower frequency radar for a given aperture size; and this results in increased detection range; if an aircraft is modeled by the equivalent of one pixel on the data system half the time, it is hard to distinguish it from noise, but if it is rendered by a consistent 20 pixel object you can be relatively certain it's an aircraft.

However, stealth aircraft tend to be optimized for absorption performance against high-frequency radars; while a stealth aircraft may be mostly invisible to an X-band high-resolution fighter AESA, an L-band AWACs AESA will still see it, albeit likely in low resolution and low range due to the radar frequency.

"Second-generation" Chinese electronic radars probably refer to first-generation GaAs AESA, with the first generation referring to PESA systems. If they're expected to be roughly comparable to American AESAs of the same generation and have 450km range against m^2, they are probably X-band systems.

==

The comment I made was that for a F-22 RCS, you can get a .4m^2 RCS one of two ways. The first is if you go down to L-band, which has an inherently limited radar range, or you could average the X-band RCS of the entire aircraft from all angles together. Even with radar absorbing materials, a .4m^2 RCS as an all-aspect average is believable.
 
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