J-15 carrier fighter thread

[Jovian]

Don't know why we are talking about the Spitfire and the Mustang...

Most people don't realise how difficult it is to tool up a factory to produce something like a modern jet fighter (component); I hereby admit I was and probably still am one of such people; hey, if understand the full scope of work involve, I might as well get into the business of building jet fighters (joke)! The point here being, there are all the tooling, organization, components sourcing, certification, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It is not a simple process, else even Timbuktu will be producing their version of Su-27 (joke)!

A simple question to ask about the Su-33 vs J-15 is this: how long do you think Sukhoi will need (starting from today) to produce a J-15 equivalent version of the Su-33 if they got their hand on one of the J-15 prototype? I'm not talking about just producing a new prototype, but to put their (copy of the) design into production. Similarities here being Sukhoi, although will not have all components available from Russian companies, do have the advantage of knowledge of the airframe design from Soviet time.

Jovian

 

[Air Force Brat]

Don't know why we are talking about the Spitfire and the Mustang...

Most people don't realise how difficult it is to tool up a factory to produce something like a modern jet fighter (component); I hereby admit I was and probably still am one of such people; hey, if understand the full scope of work involve, I might as well get into the business of building jet fighters (joke)! The point here being, there are all the tooling, organization, components sourcing, certification, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It is not a simple process, else even Timbuktu will be producing their version of Su-27 (joke)!

A simple question to ask about the Su-33 vs J-15 is this: how long do you think Sukhoi will need (starting from today) to produce a J-15 equivalent version of the Su-33 if they got their hand on one of the J-15 prototype? I'm not talking about just producing a new prototype, but to put their (copy of the) design into production. Similarities here being Sukhoi, although will not have all components available from Russian companies, do have the advantage of knowledge of the airframe design from Soviet time.

Jovian

"well blow me down" what a great question, and I'm not sure, but a wild guess would be 3-5 years minimum, to get it into production,,,, and the Chinese have many of these technologies wired, for instance carbon fibre takes a lot of prep and finesse to get the kind of finished product that you need, to the tolerances that are demanded for aerospace. I get the sense that the Chinese took the ball and ran with it, out of a perceived need, not sure that the Russians would feel the imperative need to get something up and running, as they are "running rough-shod over much of the former Soviet Union, and "tweaking Europe and the United States. I believe there is a thread of "paranoia" that has been nurtured to "keep the flame burning brightly in China, and I don't mean that in a "derogatory" manner, as we in the US have our own paranoid thread??? something that drives the "Pacific Pivot? Outstanding post Jovian, and something that I had not really considered before? of course your point being that the Chinese, whipped the J-15 up like a "strawberry short-cake" when company comes, and I would have to agree, they were most expeditious in bringing the J-15 up to speed.....

 

[delft]

My main point is that a large variety of technologies can be chosen from to produce the parts of an aircraft. Having a plant available to make them is a disincentive to develop and introduce different technologies that are better and/or cheaper, especially in times of financial hardship. China when preparing to and producing J-11A was investing in the technologies to produce the parts they were not yet able to produce themselves and therefore imported. They expected to need the time to produce 200 J-11A before the newly developed production capacity were able to take over. They were wrong. It took them half the time. They will have invested quite a lot of money in that plant but they could affort it.

 

[Franklin]

Its still amazes me that China was able to reverse engineer the Flankers. We are talking about the very high end of Soviet fighter jet development here. The Russians were reportedly "stunned" when the J-11B came out. They were shocked about just how fast China was able to adapt the technology. China bought a licence to produce SU-27SK's as the J-11 (later improved to J-11A) a monkey model of the Flanker family back in 1996 and in 2007 the J-11B the unlicensed version took to the air and the contract with the Russians for the J-11A's was cancelled. China only build about 100 of the J-11's out of the 200 contracted when the contract was terminated. Now only 7 years after the first flight of the J-11B China is building multiple versions of the Flankers the twin seated J-11BS, the naval J-11BH, the carrier born J-15 and the attack version with an AESA radar the J-16 is about to enter production. Lets just say that the Chinese were black at heart from the very beginning and that China's sole purpose for the licence production contract was to knock off the Flankers. Which is true! Even so its still amazing that they were able to reproduce such a sophisticated plane in just 10 years after the first knock down kitts for the SU-27SK (J-11) arrived in China.

I don't know about Russian Flanker production but China these days seems to be big on using 3D printed parts in her aviation industry. Not only the Flankers but also the Y-20, J-10B and other planes are all using 3D printed parts.

 

[delft]

Its still amazes me that China was able to reverse engineer the Flankers. We are talking about the very high end of Soviet fighter jet development here. The Russians were reportedly "stunned" when the J-11B came out. They were shocked about just how fast China was able to adapt the technology. China bought a licence to produce SU-27SK's as the J-11 (later improved to J-11A) a monkey model of the Flanker family back in 1996 and in 2007 the J-11B the unlicensed version took to the air and the contract with the Russians for the J-11A's was cancelled. China only build about 100 of the J-11's out of the 200 contracted when the contract was terminated. Now only 7 years after the first flight of the J-11B China is building multiple versions of the Flankers the twin seated J-11BS, the naval J-11BH, the carrier born J-15 and the attack version with an AESA radar the J-16 is about to enter production. Lets just say that the Chinese were black at heart from the very beginning and that China's sole purpose for the licence production contract was to knock off the Flankers. Which is true! Even so its still amazing that they were able to reproduce such a sophisticated plane in just 10 years after the first knock down kitts for the SU-27SK (J-11) arrived in China.

I don't know about Russian Flanker production but China these days seems to be big on using 3D printed parts in her aviation industry. Not only the Flankers but also the Y-20, J-10B and other planes are all using 3D printed parts.

The purpose of the Flanker licenced production was no doubt to get good fighter aircraft and to develop the capabilities of China's aeronautical industry. They must have had a raft of technologies in development, most notable among them 3D printing, to be used in an effort to save weight and money in an indigenous version of the Flanker. That effort was no doubt expensive but clearly worthwhile.
The alternative would have been designing an aircraft and introducing these technologies at the same time. This would have been a much riskier proposition.

 

[Ultra]

Don't know why we are talking about the Spitfire and the Mustang...

Most people don't realise how difficult it is to tool up a factory to produce something like a modern jet fighter (component); I hereby admit I was and probably still am one of such people; hey, if understand the full scope of work involve, I might as well get into the business of building jet fighters (joke)! The point here being, there are all the tooling, organization, components sourcing, certification, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It is not a simple process, else even Timbuktu will be producing their version of Su-27 (joke)!

A simple question to ask about the Su-33 vs J-15 is this: how long do you think Sukhoi will need (starting from today) to produce a J-15 equivalent version of the Su-33 if they got their hand on one of the J-15 prototype? I'm not talking about just producing a new prototype, but to put their (copy of the) design into production. Similarities here being Sukhoi, although will not have all components available from Russian companies, do have the advantage of knowledge of the airframe design from Soviet time.

Jovian

It will take them (Sukhoi) even less time than China to copy China. And they will do it better. Substantially better.
Remember, Russian were able to "copy" (or should I say "inspired" by) American designs and came out with better design all on their own during cold war - they didn't import engines from other countries like China does.

B-1B < Tu-160 (flying at twice the speed of B-1B with longer range)
F-111 - Tu-22M
Concorde < Tu-144 (faster)
F-15 < Su-27 (faster and better manoeuvrability)
Shuttle Carrier Aircraft < An-225 (twice the payload while longer range)


There are more examples I can't remember.

China on the other hand right now seems to be only able to make INFERIOR copy. I havn't seen one item that's actually superior to the original - be it J-31, J-11, J-15, J-7, H-6... maybe Y-20 is better than the Il-76 it is based on, but Y-20 also incorporate a lot of C-17 and looking that way, Y-20 is inferior to C-17 "original".

The thing is China is still substantially behind Russian's technological base. In some area China is even behind India (aerospace, electro-optical) for that matter.

 

[Ultra]

Its still amazes me that China was able to reverse engineer the Flankers. We are talking about the very high end of Soviet fighter jet development here. The Russians were reportedly "stunned" when the J-11B came out. They were shocked about just how fast China was able to adapt the technology. China bought a licence to produce SU-27SK's as the J-11 (later improved to J-11A) a monkey model of the Flanker family back in 1996 and in 2007 the J-11B the unlicensed version took to the air and the contract with the Russians for the J-11A's was cancelled. China only build about 100 of the J-11's out of the 200 contracted when the contract was terminated. Now only 7 years after the first flight of the J-11B China is building multiple versions of the Flankers the twin seated J-11BS, the naval J-11BH, the carrier born J-15 and the attack version with an AESA radar the J-16 is about to enter production. Lets just say that the Chinese were black at heart from the very beginning and that China's sole purpose for the licence production contract was to knock off the Flankers. Which is true! Even so its still amazing that they were able to reproduce such a sophisticated plane in just 10 years after the first knock down kitts for the SU-27SK (J-11) arrived in China.

I don't know about Russian Flanker production but China these days seems to be big on using 3D printed parts in her aviation industry. Not only the Flankers but also the Y-20, J-10B and other planes are all using 3D printed parts.

Considering Su-27 camer out over 20 years ago (first flight 1977) when China got their hands on it back in 1998, it took almost another 10 years to make indigenous version back in 2007 (J-11B) which makes China 30 years behind. 30 years to catch up to the technology base of 1977 Soviet Russia is not quite an accomplishment IMO. It is like the car magazine I was reading the other day that compared the Chinese SUV (I think it was a Great Wall model) the editor sarcastically remarked : "Drives like a inferior copy of 1990s Toyota RAV4". You tell me if it is an accomplishment if General Motors comes out with a car that shaped and drives like a inferior copy of 1990s Toyota RAV4, right now, in 2014.

 

[broadsword]

I did not know this thread is about Russia. Suddenly, it is thrust into the discussion.

 

[no_name]

In some area China is even behind India (aerospace, electro-optical) for that matter.

I was reading along and thinking maybe this guy is just trying to inject a different perspective but then I came across this.

 

[Ultra]

I was reading along and thinking maybe this guy is just trying to inject a different perspective but then I came across this.

Was I wrong? Feel free to point out!