J-11 to J-19 aircraft INSIDER INFORMATION (from CJDBY)

Re: Russian media said that China-made J-15 carrier aircraft with WS-10A engines

Martian said:

Deino, you seem to care strongly about this issue. However, as a neutral observer, I simply follow the available facts and arrive at the most reasonable conclusion. There is another newly published article, which also claims that the J-15 Flying Shark is using WS-10A engines.

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Yes again, I do, since even if some Russian "sources" speak of Syrian MiG-31, Iranian Su-30 and J-10 .... nothing is true of these !

I prefer to do my conclusions - esp. in this case, when we have several photographs at hand - by my own ... and weighting this in relation to the info others say.

And again, IMO based on the details I see I conclude this is not a WS-10A.

According to my count, I have cited Chinese Military Aviation, Defense Update, and Military of China. Try to keep an open mind. While I have not discounted the possibility that you may be correct, the current majority opinion is not in your favor.

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Just to make it simple ... not the number of "sources" is important, the source alone ... and in mind of what others here say, I think I'm not alone !

That doesn't mean that the J-15 will surely fly some day operatioonal with the TH ... but not yet.

Regarding Your links ... I don't take both "Defense Update and Military of China" not that reliable (honestly my opinion) ... and in mind of Huitong's "CMA" I'm a bit surprised, but I think also Huitong is not alway 100% correct ... neither i am.

But let's wait and see.
Deino

Deino said:

Yes again, I do, since even if some Russian "sources" speak of Syrian MiG-31, Iranian Su-30 and J-10 .... nothing is true of these !

I prefer to do my conclusions - esp. in this case, when we have several photographs at hand - by my own ... and weighting this in relation to the info others say.

And again, IMO based on the details I see I conclude this is not a WS-10A.



Just to make it simple ... not the number of "sources" is important, the source alone ... and in mind of what others here say, I think I'm not alone !

That doesn't mean that the J-15 will surely fly some day operatioonal with the TH ... but not yet.

Regarding Your links ... I don't take both "Defense Update and Military of China" not that reliable (honestly my opinion) ... and in mind of Huitong's "CMA" I'm a bit surprised, but I think also Huitong is not alway 100% correct ... neither i am.

But let's wait and see.
Deino

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I can't even believe this is up for debate. We can see the nozzles and they are identical to AL-31F. They are not WS-10s, clear as day. I don't care how many sources you give us, Deino is right. We trust our own eyes.

Huitong has a tendency to write a paragraph, then add on later without revising the stuff previously written. Therefore, there is often contradictory information.

And Martian, you say that Chinese Military Aviation is in support of you. Actually, huitong updated his site recently and added the following,

"The first prototype wes assembled at SAC in 2008. It made the maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by two Russian AL-31F turbofan engines"

I am not saying that it couldn't soon be powered by WS-10, but right now the J-15 uses AL-31F, end of story.

Applying citations, logic, and common sense to J-15 Flying Shark

Centrist said:

"The first prototype wes assembled at SAC in 2008. It made the maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by two Russian AL-31F turbofan engines"

I am not saying that it couldn't soon be powered by WS-10, but right now the J-15 uses AL-31F, end of story.

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Martian said:

If you want to argue that the Russians have lost their minds and they're passing up this terrific opportunity to advertise their AL-31 engines then there's very little that I can do to change your mind. In effect, you are claiming that your ability to recognize an AL-31 engine is superior to the Russians. I am sorry, but few objective people believe that.

Note: I am uncertain about the engines in the picture of the J-11 in the "photographic analysis." Two years ago, there were reports about uncertainty regarding the type(s) of engines that were being tested. However, it is two years later and most observers believe that the engines are improved WS-10s.

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In an earlier post (see post #82), I have already acknowledged the debate that occurred two years ago regarding the type of engines on the J-15 prototype. However, after witnessing the numerous pictures of J-11s flying with WS-10 engines, I believe that you are mistaken to believe that two-year-old events are applicable to today.

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Martian said:

"Some components onboard the J-15 Flying Shark are based on those onboard J-11B, such as the anti-ship enhanced PD radar, the glass cockpit as well as the improved WS-10 turbofan engine." (Source: Chinese Military Aviation)

J-11 with WS-10 engines

There are three reasons that the J-15 Flying Shark is equipped with "improved WS-10 turbofan engines."

1. Every publication (e.g. Chinese Military Aviation, Defense Update, etc.) claims the J-15 Flying Shark is using WS-10 engines.

2. J-11s equipped with WS-10 engines are old news. Since J-11s have been flying with WS-10 engines, it is reasonable and logical to install WS-10 engines on navalized J-11s.

3. If the J-15 Flying Shark was equipped with AL-31 engines, the Russian press would be crowing about it to the world.

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Let me clarify the circumstantial evidence that points to WS-10A engines being equipped on the J-15 Flying Shark.

1. CITATIONS (What Other People Think) -- Other military watchers (e.g. Chinese Military Aviation, Defense Update, and Military of China) believe that the J-15 Flying Shark is using WS-10A engines.

2. LOGIC -- Since 2010, China had equipped J-11B fighters with two WS-10 engines. If J-11Bs are flying with WS-10 engines then navalized J-11s (i.e. J-15s) are probably using WS-10A engines too.



"Had emerged in 2010 with a WS-10 equipped with two engines of the J-11B fighter photos. Obviously, WS-10 engine had appeared most of the problems have been resolved. China has also become able to independently produce advanced state of military jet engines.

Prospects

Now, China’s engineers have mastered the advanced jet fighter for the equipment, engine manufacturing technology. It is said, WS-10 WS-10A model improvements have also been put into use. Although the WS-10A in appearance very similar to WS-10, but the former has a guide vane 17 (the latter is 15), in addition, the structure of the engine below the gear box is changed."

3. COMMON SENSE -- It is a well-known fact that Russians will quickly claim credit for a successful high-profile Chinese project. How many times did the Russians remind the world that China's FC-1/JF-17 fighter uses the Russian RD-93 engine? How do you explain the Russian silence on China's J-15 Flying Shark?

In conclusion, if you hold a different opinion, I am respectful of your view. However, I do not believe current facts warrant your declaration of an "end of story."

Re: Applying citations, logic, and common sense to J-15 Flying Shark

Martian said:

In an earlier post (see post #82), I have already acknowledged the debate that occurred two years ago regarding the type of engines on the J-15 prototype. However, after witnessing the numerous pictures of J-11s flying with WS-10 engines, I believe that you are mistaken to believe that two-year-old events are applicable to today.

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Honestly ... I know these claims, but I'm sure it is something completely different prolong the live-span of an engine and to re-engineer it.

Let me clarify the circumstantial evidence that points to WS-10A engines being equipped on the J-15 Flying Shark.

1. CITATIONS (What Other People Think) -- Other military watchers (e.g. Chinese Military Aviation, Defense Update, and Military of China) believe that the J-15 Flying Shark is using WS-10A engines.

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Agreed ... but again it depends on the reliability and this is in no case 100% esp. if other evidence speak against it.

2. LOGIC -- Since 2010, China had equipped J-11B fighters with two WS-10 engines. If J-11Bs are flying with WS-10 engines then navalized J-11s (i.e. J-15s) are probably using WS-10A engines too.

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"Had emerged in 2010 with a WS-10 equipped with two engines of the J-11B fighter photos. Obviously, WS-10 engine had appeared most of the problems have been resolved. China has also become able to independently produce advanced state of military jet engines.

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Agreed again but only if these afterburners would look like the TH-powered J-11B's. Again why twoo different types of nozzles for the same aircraft ??

As such: Logic would suggest these are two dsifferent engines and additional if the second nozzle looks like an AL-31F's one logic would say it is an AL-31F !

Prospects

Now, China’s engineers have mastered the advanced jet fighter for the equipment, engine manufacturing technology. It is said, WS-10 WS-10A model improvements have also been put into use. Although the WS-10A in appearance very similar to WS-10, but the former has a guide vane 17 (the latter is 15), in addition, the structure of the engine below the gear box is changed."

Click to expand...

See point and question above: Why two different nozzles for the same engine ?

3. COMMON SENSE -- It is a well-known fact that Russians will quickly claim credit for a successful high-profile Chinese project. How many times did the Russians remind the world that China's FC-1/JF-17 fighter uses the Russian RD-93 engine? How do you explain the Russian silence on China's J-15 Flying Shark?

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That's a good question actually I can't answer .. maybe they are tired of disputing again a Flanker-issue with China.

In conclusion, if you hold a different opinion, I am respectful of your view. However, I do not believe current facts warrant your declaration of an "end of story."

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the same is my opinion ... if You hold Your opinion based on the "facts" You believe, it's o.k. But I prefer to keep an open eye and do not stick to "wishfull-.thinking" if evidence by simple comparing is clear.,

Cheers, Deino

Re: Applying citations, logic, and common sense to J-15 Flying Shark

Martian said:

In an earlier post (see post #82), I have already acknowledged the debate that occurred two years ago regarding the type of engines on the J-15 prototype. However, after witnessing the numerous pictures of J-11s flying with WS-10 engines, I believe that you are mistaken to believe that two-year-old events are applicable to today.

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Let me clarify the circumstantial evidence that points to WS-10A engines being equipped on the J-15 Flying Shark.

1. CITATIONS (What Other People Think) -- Other military watchers (e.g. Chinese Military Aviation, Defense Update, and Military of China) believe that the J-15 Flying Shark is using WS-10A engines.

2. LOGIC -- Since 2010, China had equipped J-11B fighters with two WS-10 engines. If J-11Bs are flying with WS-10 engines then navalized J-11s (i.e. J-15s) are probably using WS-10A engines too.

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"Had emerged in 2010 with a WS-10 equipped with two engines of the J-11B fighter photos. Obviously, WS-10 engine had appeared most of the problems have been resolved. China has also become able to independently produce advanced state of military jet engines.

Prospects

Now, China’s engineers have mastered the advanced jet fighter for the equipment, engine manufacturing technology. It is said, WS-10 WS-10A model improvements have also been put into use. Although the WS-10A in appearance very similar to WS-10, but the former has a guide vane 17 (the latter is 15), in addition, the structure of the engine below the gear box is changed."

3. COMMON SENSE -- It is a well-known fact that Russians will quickly claim credit for a successful high-profile Chinese project. How many times did the Russians remind the world that China's FC-1/JF-17 fighter uses the Russian RD-93 engine? How do you explain the Russian silence on China's J-15 Flying Shark?

In conclusion, if you hold a different opinion, I am respectful of your view. However, I do not believe current facts warrant your declaration of an "end of story."

Click to expand...

Your own photos show two different engines. The J-15 (top photo) has AL-31F. You can clearly see the blue flexible pedals...bluish flexible pedals are not on ANY of the WS-10 photos or models we have seen.

Second. the nozzle pedals on the J-15 are slightly longer, the WS-10, as we have always noted, is shorter and stubbier. This is confirmed by simply looking at them side by side.

Third, the number of sources you provide does not matter. The WS-10 engine is easy to spot compared to AL-31. Huitong is the most reliable, but like I said, he will write something, then add onto if, without going back to correct for the mistake. He wrote about the J-15 being equipped with WS-10s before it flew. Now, he has updated it, saying it flew with AL-31F. None of the J-15 photos had WS-10. Like I said, maybe it will at some point, but it doesn't right now. All of these sources only have the same info to go by that I do, and I am 100% certain those are AL-31Fs. I will be more than happy to show you WS-10s on the J-15 when I see it.

Forth, you are right, logic would seem to dictate that WS-10s would be used on J-15, I have repeatedly asked why it still has AL-31Fs on this forum. No one can provide an answer. But wouldn't logic also dictate that the J-20 would have WS-10s? One J-20 prototype uses AL-31Fs still. I don't know why, but it is just fact.

Fifth, your "prospects" section is ripped off my blog, I wrote it a few months back. Wareye copies my articles frequently. But the difference between the WS-10A and WS-10 is meaningless here. The WS-10A appears to have the gearbox on the bottom instead of the top, but the J-15, like the J-11B, Su-27, Su-30..etc all have gearboxes on the top of the engine. The WS-10a is intended for the J-10B (eventually) because the J-10 requires the gearbox on the bottom of the engine. That is irrelevant for this discussion.

Common sense? Russia already claims that China copied the J-15 from their Su-33, and claim that the J-15 is a piece of crap in comparison (we all know it is superior though). If the plane is just a 'clone' or 'knock off' or 'copy'...then there is no reason to bring up that it uses AL-31F engines...that is implied already.

You are entitled to your opinion, all I am asking is that you open you eyes and look at the photos available of WS-10s and AL-31Fs. Compare them. You will find that every J-15 out there has AL-31Fs.

J-15 Flying Shark engines, you decide!

Martian said:

Photographic analysis of the J-15 Flying Shark.

J-15 Flying Shark features a "shortened tailcone to avoid tail-strike during high AoA (angle of attack) landing."

"Some components onboard the J-15 Flying Shark are based on those onboard J-11B, such as the anti-ship enhanced PD radar, the glass cockpit as well as the improved WS-10 turbofan engine."

Reference: Chinese Military Aviation (see

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)

[Note: Thank you to "lilzz" for the first and "A.Man" for the second and third pictures.]

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"Newly released WS-10A "Taihang" photos
Monday, February 08, 2010

Perhaps Shenyang Liming is trying to win back public confidence by releasing Taihang production photos after the SAC outed the "Engine-Less-J-11b" last month.

Counter-public relations strike, PRC SOE style."


J-11B with WS-10A engines from China Defense Blog

Compare the China Defense Blog picture to the top picture from two years ago, are the engines the same?

Now, compare the China Defense Blog picture to the two recent pictures of the J-15 Flying Shark. Do the petals on the engines look the same to you?

If you can't decide, does it make sense at this point in time to use logic (e.g. since WS-10s are being used on J-11Bs then navalized J-11s are probably using WS-10A engines) and common sense (e.g. Russians are awfully quiet about J-15 Flying Shark engines) to make the preliminary determination that J-15 Flying Sharks are using WS-10A engines until new evidence is shown?

Once again ,,, and I think then it'Äs senseless & we should wait for better pictures to finally decide - this is IMO not the WS-10A ... and that link + pictures is old (more than one year) when we had no good TH pictures on a J-11B (additionall we all know that the first J-11B were powered by Al-31F too ... like now the J-15)

As such ... let us wait but IMO thee are no TH.

Deino

Re: J-15 Flying Shark engines, you decide!

Martian said:

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"Newly released WS-10A "Taihang" photos
Monday, February 08, 2010

Perhaps Shenyang Liming is trying to win back public confidence by releasing Taihang production photos after the SAC outed the "Engine-Less-J-11b" last month.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Counter-public relations strike, PRC SOE style."

J-11B with WS-10A engines from China Defense Blog

Compare the China Defense Blog picture to the top picture from two years ago, are the engines the same?

Now, compare the China Defense Blog picture to the two recent pictures of the J-15 Flying Shark. Do the petals on the engines look the same to you?

If you can't decide, does it make sense at this point in time to use logic (e.g. since WS-10s are being used on J-11Bs then navalized J-11s are probably using WS-10A engines) and common sense (e.g. Russians are awfully quiet about J-15 Flying Shark engines) to make the preliminary determination that J-15 Flying Sharks are using WS-10A engines until new evidence is shown?

Click to expand...

... Those engines are Al-31

J-15 Flying Shark engines rematch! WS-10A or AL-31F?!


"Some components onboard the J-15 Flying Shark are based on those onboard J-11B, such as the anti-ship enhanced PD radar, the glass cockpit as well as the improved WS-10 turbofan engine."

Reference: Chinese Military Aviation (see )

[Note: Thank you to "A.Man" for the picture.]


2005 WS-10 engine test

Now, compare "A.Man's" picture to the picture in the top frame of the 2005 WS-10 engine test. Are you 100% sure that they're not the same? Hint: turn the WS-10 engine sideways and it should fit "A.Man's" picture perfectly.

Yeah they're definitely not the same. The J-15 is using Al-31s.
Sure huitong said J-15 will have the WS-10 but he also writes

first prototype wes assembled at SAC in 2008. It made the maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by two Russian AL-31F turbofan engines.

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Compre the J-15 with J-11B that is known to use WS-10s:

The nozzles are obviously different.

And dude don't post the same stuff over in the carrier thread...