J-10 Thread IV

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
I second this. Even with J10c I don’t see Egyptian challenging Israel unless they revamp the whole doctrine and incorporate C4ISR

The fact that Pakistan was able to use the J-10CE and PL-15E to bring down a Rafale at long range means there is a possibility for others to do the same.

I don't think people understands how much of a sea changing event this is. It was always assumed in Global South that Western aircraft was untouchable which was why Egypt and others would accept Western jets without BVR missiles. It was preposterous but they had no choice.

Now with the J-10/PL-15, you can have an equivalent (or better) aircraft/missile combination to the West. I think this would allow Egypt and others to make that effort to change. It is, again, a sea change in air power especially for the Global South.

Geo-politics might get involved to stop some of the changes but I think that Rafale shot out of the sky in flames had ignited a revolution in thinking.
 

F=XX Corsair

New Member
Registered Member
PS… just read it and my replies have been much more detailed. If anyone is interested, I can post them later … unfortunately these ones keep me „bee“sy again

View attachment 151907
This “Isomerism Hive Module” migh come in handy for the swarming I reckon
54129398806_8a22bc0450_k.jpg

Anyways, the article was a good read that Lavi fact check was a real icing on the cake.
Would love to hear the detailed replies when they are posted later.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
I don't think people understands how much of a sea changing event this is. It was always assumed in Global South that Western aircraft was untouchable which was why Egypt and others would accept Western jets without BVR missiles. It was preposterous but they had no choice.
Egypt took western jets b/c since 1970s it was in western camp and on US financial support.
Also, while Egyptian rafales are w/o meteors(which aren't native to that platform in the first place), micas are still BVR. Short range is just an original trait of Rafale, the way it was designed to fight.
Now with the J-10/PL-15, you can have an equivalent (or better) aircraft/missile combination to the West. I think this would allow Egypt and others to make that effort to change. It is, again, a sea change in air power especially for the Global South.
Let's tread a bit carefully here. The problem as of 2020s isn't range; the problem is massed stealth backed by crushing american warfighting ecosystem.

Until certain point in CW, Soviet Union produced war fighting systems which could make a smaller country resist. Then, adjusting to shift in technology, own needs, but above all else - much higher prosperity compared to 1950s, Soviet way of fighting started requiring too much money for other countries to adopt it, and adoption cycle was fast, b/c US and NATO had dismantling this very way of warfighting as priority. To a large extent, USSR just subsidised its allies and clients both directly(loans) and indirectly(flawed system of estimating value of produced goods, which by default gauged prices wrongly). This way of doing business ultimately killed USSR itself, when the rift between reality and declaration turned into an abyss (thank you Andor).

Chinese weapon systems, as of 2025, are affordable, which is just as much impact of its production prowess as it is an impact of the past - China wasn't as prosperous as now on everyone's memory, and on everyone's memory no one but Pakistan(Albania etc) even considered chinese aircraft.

But Chinese system of warfighting isn't cheap. Pakistan is poor country per capita, sure, but it's still one hell of a country (247.5 million - 25% over WW2 Soviet Union!), and Pakistan has long special relationship with China dating to the time when PRC was seriously poor. This isn't a kind of relationship one gets just by jumping on a now prestigious train.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Egypt took western jets b/c since 1970s it was in western camp and on US financial support.
Also, while Egyptian rafales are w/o meteors(which aren't native to that platform in the first place), micas are still BVR. Short range is just an original trait of Rafale, the way it was designed to fight.

Let's tread a bit carefully here. The problem as of 2020s isn't range; the problem is massed stealth backed by crushing american warfighting ecosystem.

Until certain point in CW, Soviet Union produced war fighting systems which could make a smaller country resist. Then, adjusting to shift in technology, own needs, but above all else - much higher prosperity compared to 1950s, Soviet way of fighting started requiring too much money for other countries to adopt it, and adoption cycle was fast, b/c US and NATO had dismantling this very way of warfighting as priority. To a large extent, USSR just subsidised its allies and clients both directly(loans) and indirectly(flawed system of estimating value of produced goods, which by default gauged prices wrongly). This way of doing business ultimately killed USSR itself, when the rift between reality and declaration turned into an abyss (thank you Andor).

Chinese weapon systems, as of 2025, are affordable, which is just as much impact of its production prowess as it is an impact of the past - China wasn't as prosperous as now on everyone's memory, and on everyone's memory no one but Pakistan(Albania etc) even considered chinese aircraft.

What you say is true but it does not change the fact that there is now a proven alternative in the J-0CE/PL-15E.

An alternative that was not proven against some ex-Soviet aircraft but against a leading type from the West itself.

But Chinese system of warfighting isn't cheap.

It is most certainly cheaper than the Rafale that it shot down.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
It is most certainly cheaper than the Rafale that it shot down.
Ha. Rafale is indeed ridiculous in its cost, and it probably hurts a bit more b/c France isn't a full provider of top-line western warfighting package.
France was always the maveric, providing affordable, package without unnecessary strings attached. Now it's still expensive, still provides usual french solution(which in the past was done by mirages), just for triple the price.

But J-10 isn't the system, it's the shooter. There are AEW, ELINT, there is ground data fusion and GCI command infrastructure, there's SAM network of networks, and gun batteries covering them...
 

BMUFL

Junior Member
Registered Member
The fact that Pakistan was able to use the J-10CE and PL-15E to bring down a Rafale at long range means there is a possibility for others to do the same.
Well, it's not clear if it's just J-10CE with PL-15"E" or if AEW&C is also involved. From my limited knowledge of PLA doctrine, the latter has to be involved.

In that case, in order to achieve the same result, a hypothetical West-unfriendly country has to buy the whole systems, not just the fighters with missiles.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well, it's not clear if it's just J-10CE with PL-15"E" or if AEW&C is also involved. From my limited knowledge of PLA doctrine, the latter has to be involved.

In that case, in order to achieve the same result, a hypothetical West-unfriendly country has to buy the whole systems, not just the fighters with missiles.

Correct. They are offering a system. The J-10CE/PL-15E is shorthand for that system.

And it will be cheaper for that proven system (proven against the West) than anything the West has to offer and without the restrictions.

 
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