J-10 Thread IV

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
The important information is that 5 out of 6 crashes were not related to engines (mostly fly-by-wire issues) and the cause of the last crash is unknown. If there were 6 double flame-outs, that's BAD, but there's no evidence of any. Then, there's the figure that in the last 2 years, there were 35 engine failures in India's MKI. India has 220 MKI, for 440 engines. China has about 300 J-10 so 300 engines. Assuming a similar training frequency, then China should have experienced about 2/3rds of the engine failures in J-10 (440 engines versus 300), which is 24 engine failures on J-10 in the last 2 years. Have there been nearly 24 J-10 crashes in the last 2 years? Or does the IAF train 5-6 times harder? Well, then other than factors related to maintenance or climate, what else would explain this disparity?

I'd like to compare Flanker to Flanker but I don't see any figures for how many AL-31 malfunctions there were in the past 2 years for SinoFlankers.

I wouldn't use AL 31FN equipped J 10 as benchmark comparison because the Al 31FN in J 10 are heavily modified. Long time ago I posted an article about a maintenance depot in Sichuan that can extend the life of AL 31 engine.
And the article that you posted is a blog by no doubt a fanboy of Indian MKI
I would trust more the government of India accounting body

Well I can still found the article
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I wouldn't use AL 31FN equipped J 10 as benchmark comparison because the Al 31FN in J 10 are heavily modified. Long time ago I posted an article about a maintenance depot in Sichuan that can extend the life of AL 31 engine.
And the article that you posted is a blog by no doubt a fanboy of Indian MKI
I would trust more the government of India accounting body

Well I can still found the article
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Well, I only cared about the fact that 5/6 crashes were certainly not caused by engine failures and the last one unknown. As for the stuff you posted about China extending engine life and such, YES, that is what I'm talking about when I say differences in maintenance capability. The Chinese are experts at operating and maintaining AL-31. They have such extensive experience with the engine that they have probably figured out a few tricks maintaining/modifying that even the Russians did not know! And that the last J-10AS crash was due to bird strike again reduces the AL-31-related crash rate in China.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
........... And that the last J-10AS crash was due to bird strike again reduces the AL-31-related crash rate in China.
Reduces from a still very high rate. Besides, a bird strike reduces but doesn't make AL31 completely blameless unless far more details is available.
Good engine are more survivable without catastrophic failures from bird strikes than not so good ones.
Good designers look at incidents to improve their designs, bad ones look for excuses to shift blame, be it birds, weather, operators or Feng Shui.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Reduces from a still very high rate. Besides, a bird strike reduces but doesn't make AL31 completely blameless unless far more details is available.
Good engine are more survivable without catastrophic failures from bird strikes than not so good ones.
Good designers look at incidents to improve their designs, bad ones look for excuses to shift blame, be it birds, weather, operators or Feng Shui.
Very high compared to what? It's very very low compared to AL-31 failure rates for the IAF (assuming 35 failures in 2 years). No engine is "completely blameless" except engines on which the data is classified. I don't think there are any military jet engines in the world that are designed to withstand bird strike, loss of fly-by-wire, pilot error, or negligent maintenance. Especially since India and China both use AL-31, if you adopt the no-excuse attitude, it makes much more sense to tell India to make no excuses and use their AL-31's properly like China rather than to tell Russia to make no excuses and forge magically indestructible, infallible engines.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Very high compared to what? It's very very low compared to AL-31 failure rates for the IAF (assuming 35 failures in 2 years). No engine is "completely blameless" except engines on which the data is classified. I don't think there are any military jet engines in the world that are designed to withstand bird strike, loss of fly-by-wire, pilot error, or negligent maintenance. ................
Duh, compared to WS10 & western engines of course.
Bird strikes, negligence etc are not all the same. How serious was the strike ? Good engines require less maintenance effort even in hostile conditions. For bad ones, "negligence" might simply mean not providing air conditioning or soothing music when they're exposed to harsher weather. :)
Never said IAF is blameless either.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Duh, compared to WS10 & western engines of course.
Bird strikes, negligence etc are not all the same. How serious was the strike ? Good engines require less maintenance effort even in hostile conditions. For bad ones, "negligence" might simply mean not providing air conditioning or soothing music when they're exposed to harsher weather. :)
Never said IAF is blameless either.
Duh, is usually what kids say right before they say something completely wrong. For WS-10A, all data and incidents are classified and nothing can be assumed, so no comparison can be made. Just remember that you can have 35 engine failures in 2 years and not cause a crash in a twin-engine fighter. How serious was the strike? Enough to crash a jet. How bad was Indian maintenance? No idea, and we'll never be able to compare until IAF inducts WS-10A so we can see how many problems they have with it. That's how logically valid conclusions are drawn.

On an upbeat note, that there is a recent photo of a production J-10B with WS-10A does indicate good things (especially about reliability) of the Taihang. I'm happy about that, but even if you are right that WS-10A has better reliability than AL-31 (which you might be), you'd be right by luck, and not by reason.

Also, I think you should have a beat-down with Blackstone, since he's the one who's incredibly over pessimistic about Chinese engines to the point where he won't aknowledge their arrival even though they're in service in massive numbers and you're his polar opposite, boasting that they're the most reliable engines in the world since no publically available inccident reports must mean no incidents LOL
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Duh, is usually what kids say right before they say something completely wrong. For WS-10A, all data and incidents are classified and nothing can be assumed, so no comparison can be made. Just remember that you can have 35 engine failures in 2 years and not cause a crash in a twin-engine fighter. How serious was the strike? Enough to crash a jet. How bad was Indian maintenance? No idea, and we'll never be able to compare until IAF inducts WS-10A so we can see how many problems they have with it. That's how logically valid conclusions are drawn.
.............
LOL, and going after words & grammar used is a sign someone is grasping at straws. Is this the kind of PhDs they churn out these days ?
Prove that no reports of WS10 incidents means PLA classified them instead of there're no incidents at all. Maybe there are far more incidents with AL31 than reported & PLA classified the rest as well ? lol
When you step into the real world, messed up & all you can say is maybe your competitors messed up just as badly too, we just don't know. You're not going to go far.
A more specific answer with the bird strike is that apparently it was serious enough to cause catastrophic failure with the engine, the AL31 to be exact. No comment about the size of the bird, the vector of impact, comparison with other strikes etc ?
When your prof asks about your experiment, all you can say is 'Bad enough to explode' ? Are you sure your a PhD student ?
At least you got the part right about not having any idea with IAF standards which is why I put much more weight on the Indian official report on the sorry state of their AL31 & Flankers which is consistent with what I say about PLA's AL31.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
LOL, and going after words & grammar used is a sign someone is grasping at straws. Is this the kind of PhDs they churn out these days ?
Prove that no reports of WS10 incidents means PLA classified them instead of there're no incidents at all. Maybe there are far more incidents with AL31 than reported & PLA classified the rest as well ? lol
When you step into the real world, messed up & all you can say is maybe your competitors messed up just as badly too, we just don't know. You're not going to go far.
A more specific answer with the bird strike is that apparently it was serious enough to cause catastrophic failure with the engine, the AL31 to be exact. No comment about the size of the bird, the vector of impact, comparison with other strikes etc ?
When your prof asks about your experiment, all you can say is 'Bad enough to explode' ? Are you sure your a PhD student ?
At least you got the part right about not having any idea with IAF standards which is why I put much more weight on the Indian official report on the sorry state of their AL31 & Flankers which is consistent with what I say about PLA's AL31.
Duh is neither a word nor considered grammar; it is something that usually uneducated and immature people use to assert that something is obvious while they are oblivious to the plethora of complicating factors that sway the issue.

No incidents at all with WS-10A? How stupid do you have to be to think that that's even a possibility? This right here (among many, many, others) disqualifies you as someone knowledgeable enough to carry the conversation. Having no incidents has never happened to any technology in history, not to mention something as complicated as a turbofan engine, and the first operational turbofan of a nation, no less. This assertion is so incredibly stupid that it's like saying that since no one has ever confirmed Sparticus' death, therefore he might still be alive. No incidents with a turbofan engine is impossible (even if the PLAAF claimed that, it'd be overwhelmingly difficult to believe); the only question is how many incidents and how severe? And that is unknown, therefore, not up for comparison.

Don't be funny with the bird strike questions. Bad enough to wreck a jet is the correct and only answer. What did you expect, for someone to give you the impact velocity and kinetic damage numbers? LOL I've never seen a bird strike not wreck a military turbofan engine before and someone like you who's obviously never taken engineering or physics wouldn't know what to do with the numbers anyway. Just so you know, for your questions regarding the severity of the bird strike to make any sense it all, you would be proposing to simulate a similar bird strike on a WS-10A to see if it ends up destroyed, something we all know is not going to happen. Therefore, the WS-10A and AL-31 are not comparable once again and your questions are drivel.

Yes, this is the kind of PhD's they're churning out, the kind who's owning you so badly, you can't even follow how you're getting owned while you look like an idiot to everyone here.
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
Duh is neither a word nor considered grammar; it is something that usually uneducated and immature people use to assert that something is obvious while they are oblivious to the plethora of complicating factors that sway the issue.

No incidents at all with WS-10A? How stupid do you have to be to think that that's even a possibility? This right here (among many, many, others) disqualifies you as someone knowledgeable enough to carry the conversation.................

Don't be funny with the bird strike questions. Bad enough to wreck a jet is the correct and only answer. What did you expect, for someone to give you the impact velocity and kinetic damage numbers? LOL I've never seen a bird strike not wreck a military turbofan engine before and someone like you who's obviously never taken engineering or ..............
Okay okay, I'll take your word about 'duh' since it seems you're very knowledgeable of it. Did your PhD thesis about 'duh' huh ? :)

Want to say there're incidents with WS10 ? Easy, prove it. That's how the real world works.
Were you upset when your mummy said there's no Santa ? You must have retorted that there's no evidence to that, sightings could have been kept classified by CIA, didn't you ?

As for the bird strike, you're the one who was excited about it. I just reminded you to look deeper. It doesn't necessarily absolve AL31 of all blame. Not all bird strikes result in catastrophic failure. Robustness of the engine design which is what being discussed plays a big part.
 
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