J-10 Thread IV

[LCR34]

could be, entirely possible they could be evenly matched. it also boils down to the reader ranges, I wonder if there is a correlation between the number of TR modules and the range. J10Cs have 1200 TR modules and the WS10 presumably produces enough power for all of them while the AL31 didn't and thus with WS10 more detection range maybe possible then with the AL32. rafales have less than 840 tr modules but has two engines producing power. I'm assuming if the thrust produced also means greater electric power produced by could be wrong. rafale engines produce a combined thrust of 50 - 75kN (dry and after burning) while the early WS10 produced 120 - 150kN (wet and after burning). The latest WS10 probably produces more. if my assumption is correct that maybe the J10Cs' radars have greater range.

Theres a lot of thing we dont know. GaN or GaAs (RBE2-AA), Peak power, how effective each Tr module is etc etc. The RBE-AA is advertised to have some sort of EW capability.

 

[AndrewS]

@ougoah

I'd say drones as offboard missile trucks in front is the biggest reason why the US and China haven't gone with ramjet type missiles like the Meteor.

The Loyal Wingman drone is aiming for a $3 Million cost, which is not much more than a Meteor at $2.2 Million.

So you are better off with dual-pulse missiles which will be faster and cheaper than the Meteor at these shorter engagement ranges.

 

[GumNaam]

Theres a lot of thing we dont know. GaN or GaAs (RBE2-AA), Peak power, how effective each Tr module is etc etc. The RBE-AA is advertised to have some sort of EW capability.

all AESA radars carry the potential for EW and ECM capabilities...

 

[sndef888]

Do we have any idea where the J10's aesa radar stands?

Saw some indians on DFI saying there was no way the J10 had a better radar than the Rafale

 

[GumNaam]

Do we have any idea where the J10's aesa radar stands?

Saw some indians on DFI saying there was no way the J10 had a better radar than the Rafale

let em believe it. their once was a day they claimed that the there was no way the F16 blk52's radar was better than their su30's pesa "mini awacs" radar, even costumed that the their bison's isreali radar was better than the F16 blk52's radar. and yet, here we are post February 27th where all their claims went down the flushed drainage along with their pride.

 

[Derpy]

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this is the official website and article from one of the major players in the manufacturing chain of the meteor. and even the manufacturer says that is max operational range is 120km while, at minimum, the maximum operational range of the PL-15E is almost 150km. If we go strictly by the maximum ranges, NEZ probably won't even come into play for the meteor since the rafale will have PL-15s hunting it down a good 30kms before it gets a chance to launch even a single meteor. and if the rumors of a 70km NEZ for the PL-15s are true, then even if the rafale is lucky enough to launch one off, it would already be in the PL15's NEZ by then. just think about it, PL-15's speed is mach 4 (4900 km/h), that's 82 km per minute or 41 km in 30 seconds. The PL-15E out ranges the meteor by 30kms at minimum, that means that when launched just at the outer ranges, the PL-15E would travel its 145km range in less than 2 minutes, like 1 minute and 72 seconds. That gives the Thunders/J-1Cs a 20 second head start in launching the PL-15s against the rafales and then hitting the deck in evasive maneuvers...furthermore, if the PL15s are launched in a TWS mode, very good chance that the rafale's rwr's won't even pick it up as we saw on Feb 27th when abhi-none-done was shot down. as per him, his bison's isreali made rwr never picked up on the AMRAAM approaching it until it was too late. That makes matters even worse for the rafale cuz it would still be trying to find the Thunders and the J10Cs not knowing that it already has PL15s coming after it while latter would've already launched and gone for the deck to hide against the ground clutter.

I think you and a few other people in this post have a misunderstanding on how air to air missiles work, the motor only burns for a few seconds accelerating the missile to mach 4 after that the missile is coasting to the target like an arrow constantly losing speed to airdrag.
If you fire it from up high in an arc there is very little air resistance and you can get the claimed max ranges, if the missile have to go through dense air or the target cranks forcing the missile to turn the range reduces drastically. A 150 km range missile when fired from down low against another low defending target is more like 30-40km effective range and even less if the target turns cold.

Here is a clip from a simulator of how a 1vs1 bvr fight might look like and shows how close you have to get when both are down low.

Now this is a simulator but it is considered the most accurate public one out there and does model airdrag etc and while exact performance numbers are not available the missiles still follow the laws of physics and ball park estimates can be made.

 

[minusone]

Hi my humble opinion about less in range PL15 or PL15 export doesn’t make sense of getting J10c by PAF
as that less range PL15 can work with hopefully with JF17 so what’s the point of getting J10c if it not coming
up to the mark what PLAAF is using in their inventory
we all should keep in mind one thing this is the first export order for J10c & offcourse China don’t want rest of the world to show weakness of the particular fighter against on the adversary of Pakistan with Rafale in their hands
just a thought
thank you

what;s wrong with PL15E tho....the range far exceeded Rafale's detecting range (~130 km). It's overkill to get PL15 (>200km in range)

 

[LCR34]

I think you and a few other people in this post have a misunderstanding on how air to air missiles work, the motor only burns for a few seconds accelerating the missile to mach 4 after that the missile is coasting to the target like an arrow constantly losing speed to airdrag.
If you fire it from up high in an arc there is very little air resistance and you can get the claimed max ranges, if the missile have to go through dense air or the target cranks forcing the missile to turn the range reduces drastically. A 150 km range missile when fired from down low against another low defending target is more like 30-40km effective range and even less if the target turns cold.

Here is a clip from a simulator of how a 1vs1 bvr fight might look like and shows how close you have to get when both are down low.

Now this is a simulator but it is considered the most accurate public one out there and does model airdrag etc and while exact performance numbers are not available the missiles still follow the laws of physics and ball park estimates can be made.

Meteor is different from other missiles. It has sustained burn. Also DCS missile path simulation isnt all that accurate. I remember SD10 doing crazy things when it was added.

 

[minusone]

I don't think Iran would go for it. They are a large country and want a heavy fighter, which they will obtain in the form of Su-35. Thailand wants F-35. If Lockmart shuts them down I think the J-10C still has a chance. One of the reasons they sent J-10C to Falcon Strike 2019 was to impress the Thai Air Force.

is the su35 deal confirmed tho? The future is BVR, no one gonna stick to obsolete PESA radar jet just because it's heavier

 

[LCR34]

is the su35 deal confirmed tho? The future is BVR, no one gonna stick to obsolete PESA radar jet just because it's heavier

Either Su-35 or Su-30SM... what other choices do they have?