well we won't be able to tell the difference, PL15 and PL15E probably look exactly the same externally.
J-10 Thread IV
- Thread starter Jeff Head
- Start date
Max range is only relevant if you are shooting from up high against a large target that is also high and dont defend.
The no escape zone of the meteor against a defending fighter target is 3 times that of an amraam and most likely far greater then the PL15.
What are you basing this on?
This is patently untrue. There is no declassified data on Meteor, AIM-120C/D, and PL-12 information.
However there is the fact that both the US and China would have developed ramjet air to air missiles just like Meteor and evaluated their performance to determine best path of future generation air to air missiles. The Chinese future A2A weapons are still shrouded in secrecy. We have however received hints that at least the future systems include (but does not mean will be put into service) some form of missile truck platform using large aircraft for extremely long range weapons and combined with multi-missile gliders or dispensable drones. Other forms of extreme long range are similar to the missile once seen under the wings of J-16 now nearly half a decade ago. As for air combat, based on hints and leaks, it appears China's future direction is very networks UCAV heavy with missiles being similar to current range if not even shorter ranged but many stealthy drones doing the more frontline work with missile trucks based on Y-20 and H-6x or even J-16 launching the very heavier long range missiles.
Meteor is no better than AIM-120D and PL-15. It is nowhere even approaching 3 times the NEZ of AIM-120C and PL-12. Hardly even double the AIM-120D and PL-15 if I had to guess.
Americans would have played around with Meteors or developed their own ramjet A2A missiles and have decided to develop the AIM-260 and the latest hints suggest that the AIM-260 is NOT ramjet powered but dual pulse just like PL-15.
Both the US and China probably put many times more funding and brains towards developing a coherent future air combat strategy and weapons. Both regard ramjet as NOT the direction they want to head in. Both seem to be putting significant stock into networked UCAVs doing the majority of air combat in future and machine learning (based on data collecting and running wargames) outguns and outthinks any adversary still lobbing 150km-300km missiles at those extreme ranges (nowhere near NEZ) from expensive manned fighters. Both plan on using heavier aircraft to lob extremely long ranged missiles from far behind those frontlines. Both put stock into dual pulse air to air missiles.
US hasn't even bothered to buy and put into active service a single Meteor missile despite it being available for over 6 years now. The US often buys allied equipment. From Italian frigates to German tanks to British fighter aircraft. Why are they not buying this supa missile Meteor? Why are both the US and China who are at the forefront (at least with development programs and funding) of air to air missile development not bothering with fielding ramjet A2A missiles in large numbers? Clearly ramjet A2A missiles are simply too expensive and complex to be worth the trouble. Both these countries see a future in fielding tens of thousands of various A2A missiles, better if they can fit into future UCAVs and stealth fighters who can get well within 50km against pretty much all existing fighters. You don't need ramjet to get a kill with mach 3 to mach 4 PL-15 or AIM-120D at 50km range.
Longer ranged missiles beyond AIM-260, PL-15, and Meteor are missiles like that PL-xx from J-16, AIM-54, and R-37M. These missiles are HUGE in volume. They carry far more dead weight than the newest "medium range" towards the longer half of their range. Neither of those three long range missiles are air breathing or multistage. They are nowhere near as effective for taking on fighters and future UCAVs. At this >200km it begins to make sense for ramjet particularly against slow and large targets.
Now think about why the US and China haven't developed ramjet powered long range A2A missiles that replace things like PL-xx and AIM-54. The reason is obvious. DEW and interceptor missiles are either ready or in development. PL-10 can intercept incoming missiles. It has the kinematic performance to, the rest of the problem is in sensors. In no time, both US and Chinese aircraft would have some working Active Protection System whether it is drones based, SRAAM based, or DEW. A ramjet powered A2A missile is probably approaching 2x the cost of a more conventional one since the ramjet missile itself also has a rocket motor already. China if it was ever interested in ramjet powered long range A2A missile could started with a YJ-12 or YJ-91 but without the need for powerful onboard electronics for ECCM and the warhead size of those missiles (over 5x the size of typical A2A missile warhead). Or as China probably did as well, simply modified PL-12 and PL-15 to be ramjet powered and develop some new software for those experimental missiles.
Continuing on from the last topic discussed in previous post.
The evidence shows US and China see similar (but more advanced) missiles making their way onto networked UCAVs from fighter sized (Chinese Dark Sword which is supersonic and even Sharp Sword, Russian Hunter where both flying wings are subsonic) to small "loyal wingman" which are now shown by everyone from USA to India (also similar sizes and geometries). India has HAL CATS Warrior, USA has Boeing Teaming System, Kratos XQ-58, Russia has "Thunder".
EW and ever improving stealth meaning effective range of NEZ and engagements are brought closer and closer. Then factor in future APS in missile, DEW, and shrapnel burst (creating a cloud of "stuff" that defeat incoming missiles) which is some means being investigated to counter HGVs but in reality this tech is far easier and more effective to do against incoming air to air missiles.
Is it any wonder that since China and US are already approaching this level, they don't bother with needlessly complex and expensive ramjet air to air missiles. They are either useless at their extreme ranges due to advanced EW and stealth proliferation and in shorter ranges, they are no more effective than a typical PL-12 or AIM-120C even and we're still forgetting there are going to be APS for fighters and large aircraft.
So Indians are only now thinking about long range BVR in an era where air combat is becoming the points discussed above. Stealth is absolutely vital... almost as much as competent EW. New paradigm shifts have made Meteor like missiles pointless because they are useless at their extreme ranges and no more useful than a missile half its price and many times easier to make at <100km.
US is already trialing missile truck method with cruise missiles and later will do so with air to air missiles.
China is already producing J-20S. It's a flying supercomputer of sorts for the frontline node. Nodes further back have existed for a while.
You know what else China's already done? trialing hypersonic air to air missiles and hypersonic aircraft that "deploy" weapons... basically the Americans detected a piece of what is suspected and admitted by China to be "ordinance" fired from a HGV large enough to carry weapons. This has been public information since 2021.
Someone is a step ahead and someone is two steps ahead of where India wants to be in 5 years time with a Rafale fleet worth any mention and some rare Meteors they can barely afford to fire.
Even PAF with JF-17 block 3 and PL-15 in their many hundreds of PL-15s available to fire at IAF, beats 36 Rafales having available no more than 200 Meteors. For one thing those Meteors at their extreme ranges are no better than temporary access denial weapons, no more than PL-15, PL-12 or AIM-120C are access denial weapons at their extreme ranges.
As for DEW, SRAAM interceptors, large aircraft long range missile trucks, networked UCAVs, sensor networks, strong EW, HGVs and hypersonic air to air missiles? India won't be scratching those ideas until at least 2050.
The evidence shows US and China see similar (but more advanced) missiles making their way onto networked UCAVs from fighter sized (Chinese Dark Sword which is supersonic and even Sharp Sword, Russian Hunter where both flying wings are subsonic) to small "loyal wingman" which are now shown by everyone from USA to India (also similar sizes and geometries). India has HAL CATS Warrior, USA has Boeing Teaming System, Kratos XQ-58, Russia has "Thunder".
EW and ever improving stealth meaning effective range of NEZ and engagements are brought closer and closer. Then factor in future APS in missile, DEW, and shrapnel burst (creating a cloud of "stuff" that defeat incoming missiles) which is some means being investigated to counter HGVs but in reality this tech is far easier and more effective to do against incoming air to air missiles.
Is it any wonder that since China and US are already approaching this level, they don't bother with needlessly complex and expensive ramjet air to air missiles. They are either useless at their extreme ranges due to advanced EW and stealth proliferation and in shorter ranges, they are no more effective than a typical PL-12 or AIM-120C even and we're still forgetting there are going to be APS for fighters and large aircraft.
So Indians are only now thinking about long range BVR in an era where air combat is becoming the points discussed above. Stealth is absolutely vital... almost as much as competent EW. New paradigm shifts have made Meteor like missiles pointless because they are useless at their extreme ranges and no more useful than a missile half its price and many times easier to make at <100km.
US is already trialing missile truck method with cruise missiles and later will do so with air to air missiles.
China is already producing J-20S. It's a flying supercomputer of sorts for the frontline node. Nodes further back have existed for a while.
You know what else China's already done? trialing hypersonic air to air missiles and hypersonic aircraft that "deploy" weapons... basically the Americans detected a piece of what is suspected and admitted by China to be "ordinance" fired from a HGV large enough to carry weapons. This has been public information since 2021.
Someone is a step ahead and someone is two steps ahead of where India wants to be in 5 years time with a Rafale fleet worth any mention and some rare Meteors they can barely afford to fire.
Even PAF with JF-17 block 3 and PL-15 in their many hundreds of PL-15s available to fire at IAF, beats 36 Rafales having available no more than 200 Meteors. For one thing those Meteors at their extreme ranges are no better than temporary access denial weapons, no more than PL-15, PL-12 or AIM-120C are access denial weapons at their extreme ranges.
As for DEW, SRAAM interceptors, large aircraft long range missile trucks, networked UCAVs, sensor networks, strong EW, HGVs and hypersonic air to air missiles? India won't be scratching those ideas until at least 2050.
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I don't think ever China would sold Turkey J-10, or any other fighter jets. IADS is another thing, Greece and China have very good relationship and China see Greece as a very good helping hand in EU, so I don't think China would risk to sour the bind with Greece just to sold couple of fighter jets to a country which does not have a good relationship to begin with.
The fact that it is rocket powered and simply a larger version of an Amraam.
Though to be fair the term NEZ is not defined and an engagement starting at 50 000+ feet would increase the relative performance of a rocket motor to a ramjet then if the missile was launched at 1000 feet.
I think you mean that it's ramjet powered (with a rocket booster). But do you know its fuel capacity?
YJ-91 is also ramjet powered, it doesn't have that great a range. YJ-12 is much larger and heavier than YJ-91 but still has far superior range... more than triple YJ-91's range when launched by air compared to YJ-91 air launched as well. It's not all apparent size and such. There are so many minutiae that determine these things. Basically it's laughable to suggest Meteor has even a higher NEZ than dual pulse missile like PL-15. It's ridiculous to suggest it has three times the NEZ. There may not even be a person on this planet that knows the minutiae detail of all three missiles - PL-15, Meteor, AIM-120D.
Ramjet powered doesn't mean much in itself except to say that it has better sustained speed during the later half of its flight compared to rocket powered. This is certain. The Meteor has mach 3 to mach 4+ speed sustained throughout its flight (until fuel is depleted) while the AIM-120D's speed will drop from Mach 4+ to 0. PL-15 has a second boost phase. We simply don't know enough about them to say anything about NEZ though. How much better or worse if any difference is a dual pulse for the purpose of giving the missile a mach3+ speed at its terminal phase. We don't know. It could be better than Meteor or roughly the same.
We do know China and US do not put stock in ramjet A2A missiles of the Meteor's generation at least.
China at least is interested in hypersonic air to air missiles and have conducted tests.
Both those two superpowers have long looked into ramjet missiles and have obvious future air combat pathways that do not really include ramjet A2A missiles. A ramjet PL-12 or PL-15 isn't going to allow the PLAAF to engage a F-22 or F-35 at any greater distances than even a R-77 is and vice versa.
Now isn't that interesting.
A ramjet missile is a lot harder to develop. The US simply does not have the technology to do one. They have been lagging in ramjet technology at least since the 1970s. Making a dual pulse missile is way easier. At one point the US had a competitor to Meteor called FMRAAM but they canceled it. The Germans were working on this technology at least since the 1980s. The Meteor uses a special boron doped fuel to get the amount of energy it has. It does not use regular solid rocket fuel.
The US has simply not needed this technology thus far. And you should not underestimate the lobbying power Raytheon, the people behind the AMRAAM, have in the US.
The US has simply not needed this technology thus far. And you should not underestimate the lobbying power Raytheon, the people behind the AMRAAM, have in the US.
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Didn't the US develop a copy of the kh-31 which they acquired through a third country? They built copies to do shooting practice against in the 90s or 00s iirc.
Ramjet technology is not hard at all. Soviet kub (Akash before recent upgrades) used ramjets. The Indians improved the Akash by getting rid of the ramjets.
Kh-31, yj-91, moskit, brahmos, yakhont/onyks, yj-12, Japanese ashm, several Taiwanese missiles. All ramjet types. Meteor is the only ramjet air to air missile revealed that is in active service. I don't think there's any true barrier for the US to produce air to air ramjet missiles. Boron rich fuel isn't an issue if the advantages are truly worth it.