J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[tphuang]

The J-10B's radar is nowhere near as advanced as the ones on the J-15, J-16, and J-11B. Seeing that the airframe enhancements on the J-10B are also applied to the J-15 and J-16, the latter would be far more advanced than the J-10B.

J-10B radar should actually be more advanced than the one on J-11B and J-15, since, they are not AESA as of now. Even when J-15 gets upgraded to using AESA radar, J-15/16 would still only have slightly newer AESA radar than J-10B. The jump in generation isn't as large as from PD radar to AESA or from this first generation to what J-20 will use. Outside of radar change, J-10B has a new generation of integrated electronic system with IRST, new EW suite, new communication/ECM antennas, MMI and mission computers. A lot of stuff tested on here will help J-20 project. I don't see how airframe enhancements on J-10B can be applied to J-15/16, unless you show me why you would want to put DSI intake on J-15/16. So I'm not sure how J-15 and J-16 are more advanced than J-10B. These aircraft have complimentary roles. If you just want to compare the generation of their electronics, J-10B certainly is at or ahead of what's on any of the flanker variants.

Remember at this point, we still haven't seen production version of J-15 doing test flights yet. We've only seen it in factory like we've seen J-10B production version in factory. So in terms of production batch, they are at about the same timeline.

 

[Franklin]

J-10B radar should actually be more advanced than the one on J-11B and J-15, since, they are not AESA as of now. Even when J-15 gets upgraded to using AESA radar, J-15/16 would still only have slightly newer AESA radar than J-10B. The jump in generation isn't as large as from PD radar to AESA or from this first generation to what J-20 will use. Outside of radar change, J-10B has a new generation of integrated electronic system with IRST, new EW suite, new communication/ECM antennas, MMI and mission computers. A lot of stuff tested on here will help J-20 project. I don't see how airframe enhancements on J-10B can be applied to J-15/16, unless you show me why you would want to put DSI intake on J-15/16. So I'm not sure how J-15 and J-16 are more advanced than J-10B. These aircraft have complimentary roles. If you just want to compare the generation of their electronics, J-10B certainly is at or ahead of what's on any of the flanker variants.

Remember at this point, we still haven't seen production version of J-15 doing test flights yet. We've only seen it in factory like we've seen J-10B production version in factory. So in terms of production batch, they are at about the same timeline.

The news that the J-10B could soon enter service is not surprising since we have seen pictures of J-10B's being assembled at CAC back in early july. That's now more than 2 months ago. The J-10B represents a new level of sophistication for the PLAAF fighter fleet. But wouldn't some of the electronic improvements on the J-10B being adapted and transfered to the J-16 that's now still under going testing. And since the J-16 is a much bigger airplane than the J-10B that means that the J-16 if not more modern than the J-10B but will be more powerful. To talk about AESA radar for the J-11B and the J-15 is still too early at this point.

 

[SinoSoldier]

J-10B radar should actually be more advanced than the one on J-11B and J-15, since, they are not AESA as of now. Even when J-15 gets upgraded to using AESA radar, J-15/16 would still only have slightly newer AESA radar than J-10B. The jump in generation isn't as large as from PD radar to AESA or from this first generation to what J-20 will use. Outside of radar change, J-10B has a new generation of integrated electronic system with IRST, new EW suite, new communication/ECM antennas, MMI and mission computers. A lot of stuff tested on here will help J-20 project. I don't see how airframe enhancements on J-10B can be applied to J-15/16, unless you show me why you would want to put DSI intake on J-15/16. So I'm not sure how J-15 and J-16 are more advanced than J-10B. These aircraft have complimentary roles. If you just want to compare the generation of their electronics, J-10B certainly is at or ahead of what's on any of the flanker variants.

Remember at this point, we still haven't seen production version of J-15 doing test flights yet. We've only seen it in factory like we've seen J-10B production version in factory. So in terms of production batch, they are at about the same timeline.

This diagram, supposedly for internal use, shows that the J-16's AESA radar is a 2nd generation system while the J-10B is a 1.5th generation system. It makes sense as well since the J-10B was developed long before the J-15 and J-16. A lot of analysis seem to state that the J-10B is more advanced simply because its radar was chosen over the one slated for the J-15 and J-16, but the J-10B's radar was chosen for it simply because it was small enough for its randome.

Lei Qiang and a few other defense sources claim that the J-15 employs AESA radar while a PLA Air Force exhibition had a sign that stated that the J-11 has AESA radar, which closely conforms to the rumor of the 450 km radar range for it.

 

[tphuang]

The news that the J-10B could soon enter service is not surprising since we have seen pictures of J-10B's being assembled at CAC back in early july. That's now more than 2 months ago. The J-10B represents a new level of sophistication for the PLAAF fighter fleet. But wouldn't some of the electronic improvements on the J-10B being adapted and transfered to the J-16 that's now still under going testing. And since the J-16 is a much bigger airplane than the J-10B that means that the J-16 if not more modern than the J-10B but will be more powerful. To talk about AESA radar for the J-11B and the J-15 is still too early at this point.

I don't think I argued against power at this point. Flanker and J-10s have different roles in PLA. Also, you are dealing with two different companies here. While I think the avionics on J-10B and J-16 should be comparable. Nobody here have anyway of knowing all the performance details. Also, J-16 is to have the role of fighter bomber in PLAAF, so its avionics would emphasis different part that J-10B.

This diagram, supposedly for internal use, shows that the J-16's AESA radar is a 2nd generation system while the J-10B is a 1.5th generation system. It makes sense as well since the J-10B was developed long before the J-15 and J-16. A lot of analysis seem to state that the J-10B is more advanced simply because its radar was chosen over the one slated for the J-15 and J-16, but the J-10B's radar was chosen for it simply because it was small enough for its randome.

Lei Qiang and a few other defense sources claim that the J-15 employs AESA radar while a PLA Air Force exhibition had a sign that stated that the J-11 has AESA radar, which closely conforms to the rumor of the 450 km radar range for it.

Well J-11B definitely doesn't have AESA radar right now. It may get retrofitted later, but we will find out when that happens. J-15 probably will get AESA radar. I don't think I argued against that. Whether or not either of these have AESA radar, it's hard to see how they would be more advanced than J-10B.

Now in terms of J-16 AESA radar, even if that diagram is true (which we are not sure of at this point), that would only represent a slightly more advanced radar than J-10B. As I said, J-10B upgrades involves a whole new integrated system of avionics. To use a blanket statement like J-16 radar is a lot more advanced than J-10B really is overly simplistic. For example, APG-79 is a generation ahead of APG-77 in AESA development. I certainly wouldn't say APG-79 is way more advanced. And the gap between J-10B and J-16 radar is likely to be smaller. I think the most important part here is to note that PLAAF is moving all its new fighter jet to AESA radar now. Your earlier statements shows very little appreciation for how much of an upgrade J-10B is.

 

[Blitzo]

J-10B radar should actually be more advanced than the one on J-11B and J-15, since, they are not AESA as of now. Even when J-15 gets upgraded to using AESA radar, J-15/16 would still only have slightly newer AESA radar than J-10B. The jump in generation isn't as large as from PD radar to AESA or from this first generation to what J-20 will use. Outside of radar change, J-10B has a new generation of integrated electronic system with IRST, new EW suite, new communication/ECM antennas, MMI and mission computers. A lot of stuff tested on here will help J-20 project. I don't see how airframe enhancements on J-10B can be applied to J-15/16, unless you show me why you would want to put DSI intake on J-15/16. So I'm not sure how J-15 and J-16 are more advanced than J-10B. These aircraft have complimentary roles. If you just want to compare the generation of their electronics, J-10B certainly is at or ahead of what's on any of the flanker variants.

Remember at this point, we still haven't seen production version of J-15 doing test flights yet. We've only seen it in factory like we've seen J-10B production version in factory. So in terms of production batch, they are at about the same timeline.

By "airframe" enhancements I think he was referring to menial RCS reduction measures on J-10B which could also be applied to flankers. RAM RAS, that kind of thing.

Also, is there any reason to believe J-15 doesn't also have similarly upgraded and integrated electronics which J-10B yields? Of course there are no visible ECM antennas, but it's not a far stretch to think they could share the same IRST as J-10B, mission computers, etc. I.e.: could SAC and CAC both source work to similar subcontractors?

I think sinosoldier is also presuming J-11B and J-15 both have AESA as well, which is still dubious. For instance, why would there be the J-11 testbed with the new radome for testing presumably an AESA, if J-11B and J-15 already have it equipped?
On the other hand, the J-11 radar testbed is to demonstrated a specific AESA meant to retrofit on old J-11Bs, whereas J-15 may already be equipped with its own unique AESA (for it would not be surprising to see different radars for aircraft with different roles and operating in different environments, in different branches of the military as well)

 

[SinoSoldier]

I don't think I argued against power at this point. Flanker and J-10s have different roles in PLA. Also, you are dealing with two different companies here. While I think the avionics on J-10B and J-16 should be comparable. Nobody here have anyway of knowing all the performance details. Also, J-16 is to have the role of fighter bomber in PLAAF, so its avionics would emphasis different part that J-10B.


Well J-11B definitely doesn't have AESA radar right now. It may get retrofitted later, but we will find out when that happens. J-15 probably will get AESA radar. I don't think I argued against that. Whether or not either of these have AESA radar, it's hard to see how they would be more advanced than J-10B.

Now in terms of J-16 AESA radar, even if that diagram is true (which we are not sure of at this point), that would only represent a slightly more advanced radar than J-10B. As I said, J-10B upgrades involves a whole new integrated system of avionics. To use a blanket statement like J-16 radar is a lot more advanced than J-10B really is overly simplistic. For example, APG-79 is a generation ahead of APG-77 in AESA development. I certainly wouldn't say APG-79 is way more advanced. And the gap between J-10B and J-16 radar is likely to be smaller. I think the most important part here is to note that PLAAF is moving all its new fighter jet to AESA radar now. Your earlier statements shows very little appreciation for how much of an upgrade J-10B is.

The J-16 radar diagram was taken from a complete set posted earlier. At this point it is very possible that the J-16 incorporates the J-10B's electronics integration as well. The J-16 would be naturally "more advanced" than the J-11B simply because it is a newer plane built by a nation that is progressively upgrading its air force technology. The J-16 includes a lot of new systems such as a sting that may include more EW components, which wasn't seen on older jets.

And honestly, after seeing the predicted specifications for the J-10B's radar, it seems that its AESA had to be significantly scaled down at a huge compromise of its capability.

 

[tphuang]

By "airframe" enhancements I think he was referring to menial RCS reduction measures on J-10B which could also be applied to flankers. RAM RAS, that kind of thing.

That kind of stuff is universal. You can put it on any airframe. I'ts kind of pointless to mention. you are certainly not going to apply intake changes on flankers, just because J-10B adopted it.

Also, is there any reason to believe J-15 doesn't also have similarly upgraded and integrated electronics which J-10B yields? Of course there are no visible ECM antennas, but it's not a far stretch to think they could share the same IRST as J-10B, mission computers, etc. I.e.: could SAC and CAC both source work to similar subcontractors?

I think sinosoldier is also presuming J-11B and J-15 both have AESA as well, which is still dubious. For instance, why would there be the J-11 testbed with the new radome for testing presumably an AESA, if J-11B and J-15 already have it equipped?
On the other hand, the J-11 radar testbed is to demonstrated a specific AESA meant to retrofit on old J-11Bs, whereas J-15 may already be equipped with its own unique AESA (for it would not be surprising to see different radars for aircraft with different roles and operating in different environments, in different branches of the military as well)

It's possible that J-15 would have similar generation of electronics as J-10B, but unlikely. None of the Chinese sources have really indicated so. And that would make sense, since the biggest part of J-15 was to develop a naval fighter jet. It's electronics are most likely J-11B level. Looking at picture of J-15 cockpit recently, it seems very similar to J-11B. Whereas J-10B was for CAC putting its new integrated electronics system on there. You can imagine the millions of lines of code that would need to be written and the testing that these new subsystems to integrate so many new components together. It's not something you can just give to someone and they automatically have it. SAC is certainly working on it for its newer programs, but we can't just assume that J-11B and J-15 have that already.

At worst, J-10B's electronics would be at same generation as J-11B and J-15 and certainly not less.

The J-16 radar diagram was taken from a complete set posted earlier.At this point it is very possible that the J-16 incorporates the J-10B's electronics integration as well. The J-16 would be naturally "more advanced" than the J-11B simply because it is a newer plane built by a nation that is progressively upgrading its air force technology. The J-16 includes a lot of new systems such as a sting that may include more EW components, which wasn't seen on older jets.

And honestly, after seeing the predicted specifications for the J-10B's radar, it seems that its AESA had to be significantly scaled down at a huge compromise of its capability.

A scaled down radar would generally have less range and engagement capability than a larger one. No one is disputing that a larger AESA for flankers would be more powerful. Also no one is disputing that J-16 would have more advanced technology than J-11B. Why would you produce this new fighter bomber if it doesn't have newer systems and more multi-role capabilities? In terms of J-10B and J-16, I would personally imagine them to have a similar level of avionics, but you are saying it's a lot more advanced just based on the 1.5 generation vs 2 generation AESA radar on a paper (which may or may not turn out to be true). I'm making the point that there is a lot more to J-10B than just AESA radar and that the so called "1.5 gen to 2nd gen" is not a huge jump. APG-79 is a lot more advanced than APG-73. It's not a lot more advanced than APG-77.

 

[Deino]

Here we go again ... after another SPAM-attack my 12. FD J-10AS's were gone

Anyway it seems as if not the 36. AR but the 34. AR operated them.

Deino

 

[latenlazy]

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Not what I would call a reliable source, but VERY interesting if true.

 

[Franklin]

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Not what I would call a reliable source, but VERY interesting if true.

That's right WantChinaTimes is not a credible source i read a article there that the J-15 can't take off from the ski jump with ground attack and anti ship weapons. I even posted it on the aircraft carrier thread just to be debunked the next day when photo's appeared of J-15's with YJ-83 missile's and ground attack munitions on the Liaoning.