J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

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kei3000

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[video=youtube;E_PxRo-szsU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_PxRo-szsU[/video]


Here is a J-10 show clip in zhuhai 2012.

Also, if you can find a chinese proxy (means have a chinese IP), you can watch on youku or CCTV online for more those videos.

[video]http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDczNjYzNzQ0.html?f=18546526[/video]

[video]http://news.cntv.cn/military/20121110/105272.shtml[/video]
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General

Nice! Hopefully this will put an end to some of the more ridiculous rumors that have been spread about the J10. For those of you know don't speak Chinese:

Length: 16.43m
Height: 5.43m
Wingspan: 9.75m
Normal Take-off Weight: 12,400kg
Maximum Take-off Weight: 18,600kg
Maximum External Stores: 6,600kg
Take-off and Landing Distance: 400-650m
Max Speed (mach): 1.8
Service ceiling: 17km
Basic range: 1650km

The 1.8M speed limit is a little surprising, but not terrible, and it is good to have confirmation that the J10 is anything but short legged with a 1,650km range. Although it would have been better if they specified what they meant by basic range. On internal fuel only? Or with drop tanks? If with tanks, how many?
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Nice! Hopefully this will put an end to some of the more ridiculous rumors that have been spread about the J10. For those of you know don't speak Chinese:

Length: 16.43m
Height: 5.43m
Wingspan: 9.75m
Normal Take-off Weight: 12,400kg
Maximum Take-off Weight: 18,600kg
Maximum External Stores: 6,600kg
Take-off and Landing Distance: 400-650m
Max Speed (mach): 1.8
Service ceiling: 17km
Basic range: 1650km

The 1.8M speed limit is a little surprising, but not terrible, and it is good to have confirmation that the J10 is anything but short legged with a 1,650km range. Although it would have been better if they specified what they meant by basic range. On internal fuel only? Or with drop tanks? If with tanks, how many?

depending on what they meant by 'basic range'. If it means ferry range (w/o external tanks) than it is just okaay.. if it's with drop tanks than it would be severely short legged.

It it means combat range than it is super duper awesome! LOL

If you ask me I think they meant the first one... which is ferry range w/o external tanks
 

tphuang

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depending on what they meant by 'basic range'. If it means ferry range (w/o external tanks) than it is just okaay.. if it's with drop tanks than it would be severely short legged.

It it means combat range than it is super duper awesome! LOL

If you ask me I think they meant the first one... which is ferry range w/o external tanks

I think so too. I seriously questioned the number they are showing here with the range and top speed. The length and width and takeoff weight, I think we can trust those numbers
 

SteelBird

Colonel
If "basic range" means ferry range without external tanks, J-10 is still disappointingly short legged. Even JF-17 has 3,000km with 3 tanks which I interpret it into 1,500km without tanks. J-10 is rather big compared to JF-17 but with only 150km superior?
 

Totoro

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sadly, the one figure i was most interested in isn't there. There is still no official number on empty weight. From these numbers one may guesstimate is 8000-9000 kg but i would really like an official confirmation.

I am guessing normal take off weight includes oil (20-30 kg), fuel (2000-3000 kg?), pilot and its equipment (100 kg?) and a combination of missiles/tanks which is hard to guess. Actually, it seems a bit unlikely a lot of fuel tanks are included in that figure. three filled external fuel tanks with pylons would add something close to additional 4 tons. Maybe no fuel tanks are included? 4 missiles with pylons would add something like 700 kg. 6 missiles with pylons would add something like 1200 kg. Just a single belly tank with pylon should be something like 1000 kg, maybe 1100 kg.

So little shy of 5 tons for normal take off weight? that would give empty weight of around 7500 kg. I don't know. Too much guessing there, and the figure seems a bit low for a modern fighter of that size. Unless it was designed to fly just 2000-3000 hours before falling apart which i doubt it was.

I have no issues with mach 1.8 speed. It is so hard to get any official figures on chinese planes so i'll take any official number i get, if it's within reason. One won't see an f-16 or gripen with any sort of meaningful load go over mach 1.8. Maybe what looked to us as a movable ramp on the upper intake lip is in fact not movable. So the whole intake is fixed. And it sort of explains why they transitioned from j-10a to j-10b with a clearly fixed intake. That would make much more sense than having a j10a with moving ramp, perhaps able of mach 2.2 or so speeds, then going slower with the fixed intake on j-10b. Mach 1.8 is a very modern top speed, really. A sweet spot of design seen in some other fighter contemporaries.
 

A.Man

Major
Nice! Hopefully this will put an end to some of the more ridiculous rumors that have been spread about the J10. For those of you know don't speak Chinese:

Length: 16.43m
Height: 5.43m
Wingspan: 9.75m
Normal Take-off Weight: 12,400kg
Maximum Take-off Weight: 18,600kg
Maximum External Stores: 6,600kg
Take-off and Landing Distance: 400-650m
Max Speed (mach): 1.8
Service ceiling: 17km
Basic range: 1650km

The 1.8M speed limit is a little surprising, but not terrible, and it is good to have confirmation that the J10 is anything but short legged with a 1,650km range. Although it would have been better if they specified what they meant by basic range. On internal fuel only? Or with drop tanks? If with tanks, how many?


The definition of Basic Range: 基本航程有个定义是,标准空优挂载,目标区上空停留30分钟,返航后余燃油20%。
Basic Range definition, standard air superiority mount over the target zone for 30 minutes, returned with 20% fuel remaining.
 

Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
f-16 block 15 has the following official combat range:

611 nm (around 1130 km), carrying 2 sidewinders and two 370 gal tanks. It drops the tanks when empty, reaches the combat zone, engages in combat for 3 minutes at 30.000 feet, accelerates to mach 1.6, does 3 supersonic turns, 4 high subsonic turns (during which it fires both missiles and fires half of its ammo) then cruises back to base with 20 minutes of loiter time over runway to spare, in case of emergency.

369 nm (682 km) when it carries 4 sidewinders and two 370 gal tanks. it reaches 40.000 feet and starts its patrol which lasts up to 2 hours. It retains the tanks when empty unless engages in combat. Combat allows for 2 minutes of mach 1.5. manouvers aren't specified. Also, I assume combat happens at 2 hour mark. all missiles are fired, so is half the ammo. it returns home with 20 minutes of loiter time in case of emergency.

So... 1650 km with four missiles and three tanks which combined probably hold around 1200 gallons of fuel does seem like a good fit. I am only surprised at the 30 minute loiter time in combat zone. But i guess 3 minutes of action could equate to 30 min loiter. Do we know the size of j10 external fuel tanks? i would estimate they are in the 450 gallon class.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Thanks for the definition A.Man, that is very helpful. Although it would be better if we knew what the standard air superiority load for the J10A is, triple tanks and 4 missiles or just the belly tank and 6 missiles?

Either way, it gives us a good solid practical figure instead of some theoretical figure that is meaningless in an operational environment, which is very useful and a little surprising tbh, since I would have expected the PLAAF to be more open with theoretical figures like max ferry range or range on internal fuel only etc, and keep operational useful figures like this closer to their chests.

The basic range of 1650km itself is within the range of what I expected for the J10, which is a combat radius of over 1500km. When you consider that the PLAAF does not have any major air bases within 300km of the coast facing Taiwan, with most large bases even further away, it would make no sense for them to make their primary air superiority fighter have a range less than 1000km or else it would not be able to play a meaningful part in any Taiwan scenario, which would have been a primary design objective for the J10.

If we have another look at the figures, it would appear that they all seem to be practical values rather than theoretical bests. This makes me suspect that the normal take-off weight of 12,400kg may actually be the weight of the J10A loaded to achieve basic range of 1650km with an air superiority load. It would not be a stretch to imagine that the M1.8 figure might also represent operationally achievable max speed.

The airframe may well be able to go faster clean (wasn't it reported a while back that the J10A broke the speed record for a PLAAF plane? which would suggest it can go faster than a Flanker or J8II, both of which can better M1.8), but M1.8 might be the best you get get out of it once you hang a useful warload under the wings.
 
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