J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[Blitzo]

PLA needs the majority of its fleet to have enough persistence at first island chain. Otherwise it may not fare better than Göring's Luftwaffe in the sky of Britain.

J-10 is a good fighter, but it was designed to fight the Soviet Mig-29 and Su-27 coming from the north. Now the mission requirement is completely different. It is still useful in air defense and PLA will buy it. But its rule will be supplemental.

I believe it will more be complemental -- not every PLAAF and PLANAF fighter needs to be able to reach the first island chain striking targets nor will they all be operating in the east. J-10s with drop tanks won't be uselses around the first island chain either.

As for the cost, the right weapon is expensive but losing a war is more expensive. Also, it is rumored that J-10 is not cheaper than J-11.

Not sure about J-10 vs J-11 price, but again, what the PLA needs and what it can afford are different. I agree that a fleet with a majority of J-20s, flankers and strikers would be the best but can they afford and support it? Is it fully necessary in peacetime?
Unless they're willing to downsize there's no way they can be made up of mostly heavy weights, I'm not even that confident J-10 will be the PLAAF's mainstay like J-7 was.

----

Basically the crux of what I'm saying is what they want and what they can get is different.
I'd be happy to speculate on what their future fleet could look like and there are a few things which could change between our predictions but something which I believe is near definite is that PLAAF will be sticking with J-10 production for a while, and that its fleet will not be made of a heavy fighter majority and probably not half either (in terms of numbers rather than weight).

 

[Lion]

PLA must have the capability to strike the first island chain to have a chance of winning the next war. Medium and light fighters are not really cost effective considering the mission requirement. J-10 is a good fighter for air defense in near seas but that is it.

Buying too many light and medium fighters will be a fatal mistake same as the Luftwaffe made in battle of Britain with their vast fleet of short ranged BF-109s. I think PLA already knows this and will continue to buy J-10 but not in large numbers.

J-10 is not that short-range. Its running on turbofan and has a large delta wing to house decent fuel. During a CCTV military interview, one of the advantage of J-10 is the large delta wing which can house many fuel. If j-10 is really that short leg, CFT will be a priority modification in j-10B but it has not happen yet. Instead the first PLAAF plane with CFT mod is JL9 which is really a pathetic short leg.

Short range is the reason why FC-1 is being kept out of service for PLAAF and PLAN despite being a cheaper plane and a major upgrade compare to j-7G. Remember, despite fC-1 deems as a short leg by PLAAF, it can managed a ferry range of 3000km with 3 drop tanks and full missile load. J-10 definitely can't outrange j-11B but is not as short range as you all think. I bet the combat radius of j-10 is just the most 20% inferior compare to J-11.

 

[Munir]

Pakistani airforce commander told a year ago in AFM that J10 has good range. Lion explained pretty good why.

But: What if JF17-2 will get CFT... Will it be a cheap alternative for the PLAN/PLAAF?

 

[Lion]

Pakistani airforce commander told a year ago in AFM that J10 has good range. Lion explained pretty good why.

But: What if JF17-2 will get CFT... Will it be a cheap alternative for the PLAN/PLAAF?

Then J-10 will get CFT too.. In the end , J-10 will still outrange FC-1. FC-1 is absolutely suitable for range and terrain of Pakistan but China is different as she is a very huge country. It need a more long legged jet to complete protect its airspace.

 

[tphuang]

PLA needs the majority of its fleet to have enough persistence at first island chain. Otherwise it may not fare better than Göring's Luftwaffe in the sky of Britain.

J-10 is a good fighter, but it was designed to fight the Soviet Mig-29 and Su-27 coming from the north. Now the mission requirement is completely different. It is still useful in air defense and PLA will buy it. But its rule will be supplemental.

As for the cost, the right weapon is expensive but losing a war is more expensive. Also, it is rumored that J-10 is not cheaper than J-11.

J-10 is definitely cheaper than J-11. And J-15 and follow on to J-11B is also quite a bit more expensive than J-10B.

Also, it's a lot more expensive to fly flankers than it is to fly J-10. Think about all of the maintenance problems that PLAAF has had with flankers. It should also be cheaper to fly JF-17 than J-10. These are all things you should think about.

 

[nosh]

J-10 is definitely cheaper than J-11. And J-15 and follow on to J-11B is also quite a bit more expensive than J-10B.

Also, it's a lot more expensive to fly flankers than it is to fly J-10. Think about all of the maintenance problems that PLAAF has had with flankers. It should also be cheaper to fly JF-17 than J-10. These are all things you should think about.

If the mission requires persistence over long distance then small fighters are not useful no matter how cheap their flights are during peacetime. The lack of range of jet fighters is one major reason why PRC didn't take all the Spratly in 1988. The correct weapon is expensive to buy and operate, but losing a war is much more expensive.

 

[Blitzo]

If the mission requires persistence over long distance then small fighters are not useful no matter how cheap their flights are during peacetime. The lack of range of jet fighters is one major reason why PRC didn't take all the Spratly in 1988. The correct weapon is expensive to buy and operate, but losing a war is much more expensive.

J-10 isn't exactly a light fighter though, and you can't realistically have a fighter fleet made up of heavy fighters with a majority.
And j-10s will still be useful in a spartly scenario -- wasn't it just a few weeks ago where we heard them successfully winning an intercept with a couple Vietnamese su-30s over there?
Again what you want and what you can get is different c'mon..

 

[no_name]

I remember seeing a map of J-10 deployed regiments around 2008, showing most of them around important cities and one near hainan. I think they may serve mainly defensive roles, and used to guard against counter attacks even if they need to send the longer legged fighters out on attack mission themselves.

 

[zoom]

Allegedly Huzhigeng has been answering some questions on the procurement of J10A and J10B to PLAAF,PLANAF and PAF.

Huzhigeng recently made another appearance on CJDBY, and brought some more insider information. For those of you that don't know who he is, he works for the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, the design bureau for J-17, JF-17, J-10 and J-20. It looks like development in the next year will be pretty smooth ride. Without further delay, here is what he said.

When asked about test flights of J-10B, he said:

年底前要入役的。。当然要欢迎总装头头了。第一批1X架。将装备某王牌师。。。某师的人已经有不少飞行员来 到成飞了。年底前就有几架要飞走。。。。
"It (J-10B) will enter service at the end of the year, thus military officials came to visit. The first batch will have more than 10 planes, and sent to a first tier unit. That unit had already send quite a few pilots to CAC, and few will fly home with their new toys before the end of the year."

Furthermore, he talked about export:

还有。。棍子的外销已经签了单了。。XIAO BA。。是第一个用HU。。。XX架。。。比一个团多一些。里面的设备有些变化。。。小BA特意要 求的。。
"Also, export order for J-10 had been signed for Pakistan. There will be XX planes, slightly more than a regiment (about 2 squadrons) size unit. Some changes to avionics at the request of Pakistanis."

Regarding Pakistani version:

老的。。。。不过里面设备有变化。。。。
"The export orders are for older J-10A version, not B. However there are upgrades done."

About SAC and J-11 export:

北边的战斗机的用HU全是中国空军和海军航空兵。。不可能出口的。以后也不要指望北边的飞机会出口。当然包 括北边的四代机。。
"SAC's client are Chinese air force and naval aviation, so export is not possible. Do not expect them to export in the future either, including their 4th (5th) gen."

Whether J-10A will stop production after J-10B starts:

不会。。海航的单子还没有生产完。。还有小BA。。也要生产一批棍A。。。。。
"No, the orders from naval aviation still have to be filled, as well as Pakistan's."

Whether WS-15 engine can keep up with the progress of J-20 on time:

四代大推跟上歼20的进度没有问题。。目前进展还是很顺利的。。明年03架歼20会装上新的航电。。。某所 的光电式分布式系统明年也要装机的。。。水平和F35一个档次...
"There is no problem as everything is going smooth at this point. The 3rd prototype next year will be equipped with new avionics. Our own EODAS (Electro Optical Distributed Apature System) will also be installed, and is similar to one found on F-35."

Whether J-10B will be equipped with WS-10 insteald of AL-31F in the future:

很难....至少空军的歼10B目前为止签的单子都是毛子的发动机...太行基本上全部让沈阳 装机了...
"It's difficult. All J-10B orders at this point are planing on using AL-31F. SAC took all the WS-10 for themselves."

What kind of engine will Pakistan's J-10 use:

毛国发动机了...这还用问...
"Russian, do you really need to ask?"

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

N.B. Above transcript taken from Pakdef>

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[Blitzo]

^ Is this huzhigeng guy reliable -- I'd think real "insiders" would be told to keep quiet.

That said if J-10B (albeit with russian engines) enters service this year and the 3rd prototype with full avionics flies next year we have quite a bit to look forward too. Nice to know J-20 will probably have a system like DAS.