J-10 Thread III (Closed to posting)

[MiG-29]

... Really dude. We say "we don't know the capabilities of the two aircraft" and you come and make these proclamations with such conviction... zzzz

Besides how do you know the J-10 doesn't have an HMS? -__-

it does, but the final outcomes is related to pilot quality, and missile off bored capabilities

 

[i.e.]

it does, but the final outcomes is related to pilot quality, and missile off bored capabilities

so you are implying that JASDF pilots and the missile system they used are better?

 

[siegecrossbow]

correct i did understand that. but even if the J-10 is more Agile, or has better rate of climb the F-2 has a really good radar and outstanding weapons, second all these intercepts are not real combat, simply, they are shows of force.

Look I am not trying to argue that the J-10 is a superior fighter or claim that this is a real combat situation or anything like that. Second of all I agree with your assessment about the show of force, which is something I found significant and was the reason I posted the news in the first place. China never officially reported this piece of info until now and the fact that they are talking about it so openly may signal policy change in the East China Sea maritime disputes.

 

[Blitzo]

correct i did understand that. but even if the J-10 is more Agile, or has better rate of climb the F-2 has a really good radar and outstanding weapons, second all these intercepts are not real combat, simply, they are shows of force.

OT, but what exactly are the specs for the F-2's outstanding weapons? (I assume you mean AAM-5? that's the only real deficiency PLAAF fighters have at the moment. Their MRAAMs are very capable, they just need 5th gen SRAAMs. My question is if AAM-5 is such an SRAAM)
And yes we know these intercepts are not real combat (nobody claimed so!), and we certainly can not extrapolate the performance of either aircraft from these intercepts.

We've already said that a few times.zzzzz

it does, but the final outcomes is related to pilot quality, and missile off bored capabilities

Sigh let's rein it in a little, guys... Besides I thought we were talkign about the performance of the aircraft before and not the final outcome, whatever that is.

 

[latenlazy]

The fact that the J-10s locked on to the F-2s means zip about the plane's capabilities until we have further information on how the interception took place and what actions, if any, the F-2s took.

I agree, but that's not how they're (the fanboys) are going to take it.

 

[MiG-29]

Look I am not trying to argue that the J-10 is a superior fighter or claim that this is a real combat situation or anything like that. Second of all I agree with your assessment about the show of force, which is something I found significant and was the reason I posted the news in the first place. China never officially reported this piece of info until now and the fact that they are talking about it so openly may signal policy change in the East China Sea maritime disputes.

I think the J-10 is a really good fighter, i think in agility it might perhaps surpass the F-16 and F-2 (In ITR only, in STR i think latest F-16 can have better STR thanks to excellent TWR), but i always consider being more agile does not mean be better, the MiG-29 was really agile in the 90`s but when Israel introdced Python V even F-15I will beat the MiG-29A, nowadays HMS and high off bored missiles are more important in close combat, TVC is mostly for post stall and stealth.

So even if the J-10 has equal HMS and weaponry the last thing will come to pilot training.

But i do not think the F-2 can not beat the J-10, both jets are pretty much well matched.

 

[latenlazy]

I think the J-10 is a really good fighter, i think in agility it might perhaps surpass the F-16 and F-2 (In ITR only, in STR i think latest F-16 can have better STR thanks to excellent TWR), but i always consider being more agile does not mean be better, the MiG-29 was really agile in the 90`s but when Israel introdced Python V even F-15I will beat the MiG-29A, nowadays HMS and high off bored missiles are more important in close combat, TVC is mostly for post stall and stealth.

So even if the J-10 has equal HMS and weaponry the last thing will come to pilot training.

But i do not think the F-2 can not beat the J-10, both jets are pretty much well matched.

Okay, moving on?

 

[i.e.]

I think the J-10 is a really good fighter, i think in agility it might perhaps surpass the F-16 and F-2 (In ITR only, in STR i think latest F-16 can have better STR thanks to excellent TWR), but i always consider being more agile does not mean be better, the MiG-29 was really agile in the 90`s but when Israel introdced Python V even F-15I will beat the MiG-29A, nowadays HMS and high off bored missiles are more important in close combat, TVC is mostly for post stall and stealth.

So even if the J-10 has equal HMS and weaponry the last thing will come to pilot training.

But i do not think the F-2 can not beat the J-10, both jets are pretty much well matched.

Instantaneous turn rate is not J-10's only trick in the book. (but is a good trick to have, nose pointing is still what matters in a dog fight even if you have high off boresight and HMS.)

I suspect in terms of things like level accel and top speed J-10 would match or even beat some version of F-16. after all they did put that delta wing in for something.

Speed and agility still matters in setting up your attack and post merge. HMS and high agility AAMS are not fool-proof too you know.

 

[plawolf]

Regarding the intercept of the VNAF fighters I think PLAAF's electronic attack capability helped out a great deal. The USN supposedly crippled the communications network of the entire Nanjing military district during the 1996 Taiwan strait crisis with just a single Prowler. On the other hand it is my personal belief that the J-10s would've done well had China not employed electronic attack due to the superiority of the J-10As, when compared with the Su-30 MKKs, in air to air combat. There was an official leak, back in late 2010, concerning the "shoot-down" of 5 out of 6 Su-30s by J-10s during an exercise. The only Su-30 that escaped was piloted by one of the premier Su-30 pilots in PLAAF (surname Yang).

Hey, do you have any more details on the 1996 Growler incident or the VNAF intercept? Would be interesting to read.

Regarding the J10 v Su30mkk match up, the MKK didn't really 'escape', but rather the attacking unit used clever tactics of drawing the defending J10s away with their main force (which was promptly wiped out) while a lone MKK flew low on a flanking move (quite apt I thought) and 'destroyed' the intended target.

However, I think you are still correct in your assessment of J10 v MKK in air combat, since there would not have been the need for such a move if the MKKs were better or even on par with J10s, as they could have just tried to punch through the defenders, and would not have lost their main force in the mock air combat.

 

[Quickie]

Instantaneous turn rate is not J-10's only trick in the book. (but is a good trick to have, nose pointing is still what matters in a dog fight even if you have high off boresight and HMS.)

I suspect in terms of things like level accel and top speed J-10 would match or even beat some version of F-16. after all they did put that delta wing in for something.

Speed and agility still matters in setting up your attack and post merge. HMS and high agility AAMS are not fool-proof too you know.

Not to mention there always comes a stage where both the fighters or groups of opposing fighters are out of missiles and are left with only guns. Which explains why they still built jet fighters with maneuverability as one of the more important requirement. Otherwise, they might as well build only strike fighters.