Issues/Problems the PLA needs to address

Engineer

Major
Let's say a right and proper Political Officer (PO) overhears an infantry battalion commander opine in a serious way to a small group of his peers the PLA should be a national army and not a party army, and the commander in chief should only be the President and not the CCP Chairman. What would happen? Yes, yes, I know no army officer reaching Colonel or LTC rank is that reckless, but this is a hypothetical situation.
That's like asking a hypothetical situation where soldiers hurt themselves due to having zero training with using firearms. Such situation is so unlikely you can assume it is never going to happen. The reason being is that soldiers in China receive political trainings, just like firearm trainings. So, the scenario you describe is unlikely to happen, especially when the political representative has done his job.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
The issue I'm address isn't ability of Chinese to speak against the government in general, but specific speech to diminish or displace the Communist Party. Any PLA officer unwise enough to say he or she wants the PLA to be a national army instead of a Communist Party army would face consequences. I don't think the person faces death or the goolag, but I do believe the officer's career is all but over.
Why is it so important for you to think it that way? Does is it bother you so much that the PLA are organize in such a way different from others? You assume that they are nothing but tools and robots to defend the party as if it is unfit to rule or something of that nature because they don't represent your narrative term as legitimate government. All army's exist to defend the lives of their people first and foremost. The PLA did after all defeated the KMT National Army quiet easily you know. If you look at Taiwan's army of today in comparison to the PLA they don't stand a chance in both quality and quantity.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Why is it so important for you to think it that way? Does is it bother you so much that the PLA are organize in such a way different from others? You assume that they are nothing but tools and robots to defend the party as if it is unfit to rule or something of that nature because they don't represent your narrative term as legitimate government. All army's exist to defend the lives of their people first and foremost. The PLA did after all defeated the KMT National Army quiet easily you know. If you look at Taiwan's army of today in comparison to the PLA they don't stand a chance in both quality and quantity.
Since the original topic was "issues/problems the PLA needs to address," one might expect discussions would touch upon that subject once or twice in the thread.

What's your point on PLA defeating the KMT? I don't see the relevance in regards to issues/problems PLA needs to address.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Wolf, I don't doubt your description of the PLA Political Officer is as described in some CCP army publication, and you're obviously sincere in your reading of it. But, what say you to this contrived scenario?

Let's say a right and proper Political Officer (PO) overhears an infantry battalion commander opine in a serious way to a small group of his peers the PLA should be a national army and not a party army, and the commander in chief should only be the President and not the CCP Chairman. What would happen? Yes, yes, I know no army officer reaching Colonel or LTC rank is that reckless, but this is a hypothetical situation.

My guess is the PO would "support" his battalion commander by arranging one-way tickets on high speed rail for him and his family to his new posting as the commander of a fetch-and-carry militia unit in the middle of the Gobi Desert. The said officer's peers would be supported with multiple entries in "correct" political thoughts reeducation classes. What do you think?

Well, I would question the purpose and relevance of such a loaded and unrealistic scenario.

Only people in the West cares about whether the PLA is a national army or Party army, and whether the CiC should only be the President and not CCP Chairman as well.

The Chinese are a very practical people, and care far more about the actual reality and substance of things rather than what pretty name you give it or what fancy hat you make it wear.

That is just the way the system of government is in China. Joining the party is just like getting an honorific these days, there is no serious commitments or obligations to joining, nor does one have to adhere to any specific belief to qualify or be accepted.

Pretty much anyone and everyone can and does join (obviously you need to meet certain minimal requirements and have no glaring red marks like criminal convictions). Even the "decadent business classes" is not only allowed, but actually encourage to join. The Party has become so broad as to be all encompassing to such an extent that it no longer has any real defining values or characteristics.

There are so many different factions with such diverging beliefs within the CCP that most western opposition parties are probably closer to each other.

The CCP has actually pretty much achieved their goal of making the Party synonymous with the country and the people, but in doing so, they have actually also make the Party itself largely meaningless.

But all of that is beside the point.

The problem with your question is that it is designed to question the very system of governance in China and effectively advocating the replacement of said system.

It might be acceptable and even chic to do so in the west, but everyone with half a brain would know what the real reasons for saying such things would be.

If any senior commander within the PLA was stupid enough to stay such things publically, and be seen to actually mean it, he would be kicked out of the military simple as that.

You may think the west more "enlightened", but publically voicing a contrary view to "universally" held core western beliefs, and you will suffer real personnel consequences just the same.

Do you honestly think it would go down well for senior US military personnel to be overheard publically strongly opining that the CiC of the American armed forces should not be the President based on some abstract and obscure theological argument?

How about advocating that the hallowed Western Democratic system is a sham and in desperate need of replacing?

What about voicing the opinion that the West's wars in the Middle East are immoral and illegal and that the men who ordered them are war criminals who should be arrested and tried?

Or some other similarly incendiary and highly controversial fringe view or belief?

My guess is that the US military would "support" his battalion commander by arranging one-way tickets on the next military transport for him and his family to his new posting as the commander of a fetch-and-carry militia unit in the middle of the Afghanistan Desert, probably a unit with high Green on Blue incident rates.

Tolerance only ever extends so far, and there are red lines on what is acceptable thought in every society and country, especially for people of influence and power, like military commanders. No country or military would tolerate rouge generals or commanders who's personal views are so fringe and extreme as to put his loyalties and priorities into question.

To believe otherwise is to ascribe to a level of naivety I would think is beneath you.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Since the original topic was "issues/problems the PLA needs to address," one might expect discussions would touch upon that subject once or twice in the thread.

What's your point on PLA defeating the KMT? I don't see the relevance in regards to issues/problems PLA needs to address.

It is relevant, because the KMT for all it's hubris about following the norms of western values still couldn't defeat the Communist Army with a 3 to 1 ratio in troop numbers to begin, only to end up with defeat and humiliation and retreating to Taiwan province and took hostage of that territory and continue on with their inept ways without questioning. So how's that possible if the PLA are suppose to be that corrupt and immoral that needs to be address? The subject of this thread is about how the PLA can address the needs to shift with today's modern youth and it's growing technology in the military, NOT politics, but of course you CPC hating fan boys just couldn't help it to take swipe at it.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Well, I would question the purpose and relevance of such a loaded and unrealistic scenario.

Only people in the West cares about whether the PLA is a national army or Party army, and whether the CiC should only be the President and not CCP Chairman as well.

The Chinese are a very practical people, and care far more about the actual reality and substance of things rather than what pretty name you give it or what fancy hat you make it wear.

That is just the way the system of government is in China. Joining the party is just like getting an honorific these days, there is no serious commitments or obligations to joining, nor does one have to adhere to any specific belief to qualify or be accepted.

Pretty much anyone and everyone can and does join (obviously you need to meet certain minimal requirements and have no glaring red marks like criminal convictions). Even the "decadent business classes" is not only allowed, but actually encourage to join. The Party has become so broad as to be all encompassing to such an extent that it no longer has any real defining values or characteristics.

There are so many different factions with such diverging beliefs within the CCP that most western opposition parties are probably closer to each other.

The CCP has actually pretty much achieved their goal of making the Party synonymous with the country and the people, but in doing so, they have actually also make the Party itself largely meaningless.

But all of that is beside the point.

The problem with your question is that it is designed to question the very system of governance in China and effectively advocating the replacement of said system.

It might be acceptable and even chic to do so in the west, but everyone with half a brain would know what the real reasons for saying such things would be.

If any senior commander within the PLA was stupid enough to stay such things publically, and be seen to actually mean it, he would be kicked out of the military simple as that.

You may think the west more "enlightened", but publically voicing a contrary view to "universally" held core western beliefs, and you will suffer real personnel consequences just the same.

Do you honestly think it would go down well for senior US military personnel to be overheard publically strongly opining that the CiC of the American armed forces should not be the President based on some abstract and obscure theological argument?

How about advocating that the hallowed Western Democratic system is a sham and in desperate need of replacing?

What about voicing the opinion that the West's wars in the Middle East are immoral and illegal and that the men who ordered them are war criminals who should be arrested and tried?

Or some other similarly incendiary and highly controversial fringe view or belief?

My guess is that the US military would "support" his battalion commander by arranging one-way tickets on the next military transport for him and his family to his new posting as the commander of a fetch-and-carry militia unit in the middle of the Afghanistan Desert, probably a unit with high Green on Blue incident rates.

Tolerance only ever extends so far, and there are red lines on what is acceptable thought in every society and country, especially for people of influence and power, like military commanders. No country or military would tolerate rouge generals or commanders who's personal views are so fringe and extreme as to put his loyalties and priorities into question.

To believe otherwise is to ascribe to a level of naivety I would think is beneath you.

I agreed with you PLAWOLF but it doesn't matter what you or anyone said, haters with be haters because they've already made up their mind a long time ago. Like I said, the CPC hating fan boys will take a swipe at anything that depicts a negative narrative to China. To me their mentality are no different than ISO.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
Well, I would question the purpose and relevance of such a loaded and unrealistic scenario.

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If any senior commander within the PLA was stupid enough to stay such things publically, and be seen to actually mean it, he would be kicked out of the military simple as that.
It's a time-honored tradition to use extreme examples on contrived scenarios to illustrate points, and I think I made that clear from the start. Nevertheless, thank you for the honest and respectful feedback. Your conclusion the PLA in my scenario would be dismissed is most likely correct, and I hope the People's Republic has moved beyond sending people to gulags just for political disagreements.

You may think the west more "enlightened", but publically voicing a contrary view to "universally" held core western beliefs, and you will suffer real personnel consequences just the same.

Do you honestly think it would go down well for senior US military personnel to be overheard publically strongly opining that the CiC of the American armed forces should not be the President based on some abstract and obscure theological argument?

How about advocating that the hallowed Western Democratic system is a sham and in desperate need of replacing?.
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.
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Tolerance only ever extends so far, and there are red lines on what is acceptable thought in every society and country, especially for people of influence and power, like military commanders. No country or military would tolerate rouge generals or commanders who's personal views are so fringe and extreme as to put his loyalties and priorities into question.

To believe otherwise is to ascribe to a level of naivety I would think is beneath you.
You have some excellent discussion points on US and other Western military, but this isn't the thread subject.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
It is relevant, because the KMT for all it's hubris about following the norms of western values still couldn't defeat the Communist Army with a 3 to 1 ratio in troop numbers to begin, only to end up with defeat and humiliation and retreating to Taiwan province and took hostage of that territory and continue on with their inept ways without questioning. So how's that possible if the PLA are suppose to be that corrupt and immoral that needs to be address? The subject of this thread is about how the PLA can address the needs to shift with today's modern youth and it's growing technology in the military, NOT politics, but of course you CPC hating fan boys just couldn't help it to take swipe at it.
Again, I point out the discussion is PLA problems/issues that need addressing, and other army's problems take the original discussion/debate off topic. On the other hand, if you want KMT, US, Japan, or any other army problems/issues to be fixed, why not start other threads for them?
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The subject of this thread is about how the PLA can address the needs to shift with today's modern youth and it's growing technology in the military, NOT politics...
The original poster gave some guidelines on the point of his thread, and followed up with a narrative from his father's experience. It was clear the thread was about all aspects of the PLA, including army culture and structure (i.e,. political commissars). You are free to limit your own posts to military technology, and I don't begrudge it.

...but of course you CPC hating fan boys just couldn't help it to take swipe at it.
You know Equation, I must be somewhere in the middle if some see me as a CCP/PRC fanboi while others see me as a CCP/PRC hateboi.

So, here's a challenge for you... let's have a gentlemen's bet on my claim that I'm more balanced on CCP/PRC issues than you. By that I mean the entire body of my positive and negative posts on CCP/PRC and their actions is closer to the 50% mark than the totality of your posts. Care to take me up on that? We could ask a fair and honorable mod like Jeff Head to judge.
 

Yvrch

Junior Member
Registered Member
^^^ So Blackstone it then begs the question why do you think having a political commissar is a problem/issue for PLA to begin with? What are your thoughts and evidence for it? I'm just curious to know your side of the argument. So far I haven't seen any reasons/evidence you have given to it being an issue or problem to fix, rather than a postulation of what would happen when A says XYZ under certain circumstances.
I believe no army, none, is a democratic institution.
 
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