Issues/Problems the PLA needs to address

P

PanAsian

Major
If I may list what I think are likely areas of PLA deficiencies, some of which have not yet been mentioned:
- joint operations
- expeditionary operations
- operations within an alliance
- actual combat experience
- making full use of their high tech equipment, including C4ISR
- actual performance of such equipment
- lack of such equipment
- co-ordination between troops with and without such equipment
- speed, cohesion, independence, and decisiveness at all levels in its chain of command both military and civilian

Hypothetically a perfect storm testing the PLA in all these areas would be if a large scale armed conflict occurs in Central Asia and the PLA participates in a SCO operation to intervene.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think people keep getting wrapped up tying to apply Stalinist examples to modern China.

Unlike the Commissars of Western pop propaganda, Chinese Commissars are almost fundamentally different in every way possible. Even the word Commissar is probably a deliberate mistranslation intended to evoke that precise misconception. The Chinese "commissars" would be more accurately know as "Political Representative, or Political Officer".

The role of the Chinese Political Officer isn't to keep a beady eye on the loyalty of their officers, but rather to work with them and support them.

The PLA Political Officer (PO) undertakes crucial roles carried out my several western officers and NCOs.

He is part XO, part advisor, and part senior NCO.

The PO's primary job is to have the back of his unit commander and officers, offer the officers advice if they need it, have his finger on the pulse of the unit's moods, maintain moral amongst the fighting men, and give them an avenue to voice concerns and grievances informally and much more besides.

His primary job is to ensure the smooth, efficient running of a unit, and provides a safety net for both the enlisted men and officer class to help both bond better.

Unlike in popular western wishful thinking, there is no great undercurrent of resentment towards the CCP within the common citizenry or soldiers. People are not chaffing at some vast invisible, all pervasive leash just itching for the opportunity to overthrow their oppressors.

Sure people will grumble and vent, but few actually wants to overthrow the CCP, just like people can rage about the government in the west but not mean to overthrow their entire system of government.

Anyone within the PLA who wants to overthrow the CCP will, of course, run fowl of a Political Officer, but then, so would anyone who supports the (violent) overthrow of the governing system within any country and any military.

Most of the very few people who actually wants to overthrow the CCP are either delusional fools or western stooges anyways, and if such people have their way, China would go the same way as Syria, so I have little problem in anyone keeping such people from position of power to launch their mad schemes, but that's getting a little OT.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
plawolf said:
I think people keep getting wrapped up tying to apply Stalinist examples to modern China.

Unlike the Commissars of Western pop propaganda, Chinese Commissars are almost fundamentally different in every way possible. Even the word Commissar is probably a deliberate mistranslation intended to evoke that precise misconception. The Chinese "commissars" would be more accurately know as "Political Representative, or Political Officer".

The role of the Chinese Political Officer isn't to keep a beady eye on the loyalty of their officers, but rather to work with them and support them.

The PLA Political Officer (PO) undertakes crucial roles carried out my several western officers and NCOs.

He is part XO, part advisor, and part senior NCO.

The PO's primary job is to have the back of his unit commander and officers, offer the officers advice if they need it, have his finger on the pulse of the unit's moods, maintain moral amongst the fighting men, and give them an avenue to voice concerns and grievances informally and much more besides.

His primary job is to ensure the smooth, efficient running of a unit, and provides a safety net for both the enlisted men and officer class to help both bond better.
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.
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Click to expand...
Wolf, I don't doubt your description of the PLA Political Officer is as described in some CCP army publication, and you're obviously sincere in your reading of it. But, what say you to this contrived scenario?

Let's say a right and proper Political Officer (PO) overhears an infantry battalion commander opine in a serious way to a small group of his peers the PLA should be a national army and not a party army, and the commander in chief should only be the President and not the CCP Chairman. What would happen? Yes, yes, I know no army officer reaching Colonel or LTC rank is that reckless, but this is a hypothetical situation.

My guess is the PO would "support" his battalion commander by arranging one-way tickets on high speed rail for him and his family to his new posting as the commander of a fetch-and-carry militia unit in the middle of the Gobi Desert. The said officer's peers would be supported with multiple entries in "correct" political thoughts reeducation classes. What do you think?
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
Wolf, I don't doubt your description of the PLA Political Officer is as described in some CCP army publication, and you're obviously sincere in your reading of it. But, what say you to this contrived scenario?

Let's say a right and proper Political Officer (PO) overhears an infantry battalion commander opine in a serious way to a small group of his peers the PLA should be a national army and not a party army, and the commander in chief should only be the President and not the CCP Chairman. What would happen? Yes, yes, I know no army officer reaching Colonel or LTC rank is that reckless, but this is a hypothetical situation.

My guess is the PO would "support" his battalion commander by arranging one-way tickets on high speed rail for him and his family to his new posting as the commander of a fetch-and-carry militia unit in the middle of the Gobi Desert. The said officer's peers would be supported with multiple entries in "correct" political thoughts reeducation classes. What do you think?
Click to expand...

No, he would laugh it off with that officer over a couple of Tsingtao beers and toss up some political BS of his own.

You have this mistaken belief that nobody is allowed to speak against the CPC in China.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
solarz said:
No, he would laugh it off with that officer over a couple of Tsingtao beers and toss up some political BS of his own.

You have this mistaken belief that nobody is allowed to speak against the CPC in China.
Click to expand...
I travel periodically to China, the last time just a few months ago, so I'm well aware there's individual freedom in China, and the common folks (老百姓) can (and do) criticize the government. In fact, I'm amused at some of the criticisms I hear in restaurants about the CCP and the local, province, and national leaders, and I applaud the CCP for partially reforming itself to make people's lives better (so the party can stay in power).

The issue I'm address isn't ability of Chinese to speak against the government in general, but specific speech to diminish or displace the Communist Party. Any PLA officer unwise enough to say he or she wants the PLA to be a national army instead of a Communist Party army would face consequences. I don't think the person faces death or the goolag, but I do believe the officer's career is all but over.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Blackstone said:
I travel periodically to China, the last time just a few months ago, so I'm well aware there's individual freedom in China, and the common folks (老百姓) can (and do) criticize the government. In fact, I'm amused at some of the criticisms I hear in restaurants about the CCP and the local, province, and national leaders, and I applaud the CCP for partially reforming itself to make people's lives better (so the party can stay in power).

The issue I'm address isn't ability of Chinese to speak against the government in general, but specific speech to diminish or displace the Communist Party. Any PLA officer unwise enough to say he or she wants the PLA to be a national army instead of a Communist Party army would face consequences. I don't think the person faces death or the goolag, but I do believe the officer's career is all but over.
Click to expand...

Your original point was that PLA commissars were a kind of secret police whose duty was to report any sign of disloyalty. This is simply conjecture on your part.

As for a PLA officer speaking against the Party, it depends very much on how it was said, and under what circumstances. No one would care about a private conversation, but if it was said in public with a wide audience, then there would certainly be consequences. There is nothing unusual about that. US General McChrystal was forced to resign after criticizing the Obama administration. Another US General was fired for criticizing Hamid Karzai.
 
kwaigonegin

kwaigonegin

Colonel
plawolf said:
I think people keep getting wrapped up tying to apply Stalinist examples to modern China.

Unlike the Commissars of Western pop propaganda, Chinese Commissars are almost fundamentally different in every way possible. Even the word Commissar is probably a deliberate mistranslation intended to evoke that precise misconception. The Chinese "commissars" would be more accurately know as "Political Representative, or Political Officer".

The role of the Chinese Political Officer isn't to keep a beady eye on the loyalty of their officers, but rather to work with them and support them.

The PLA Political Officer (PO) undertakes crucial roles carried out my several western officers and NCOs.

He is part XO, part advisor, and part senior NCO.

The PO's primary job is to have the back of his unit commander and officers, offer the officers advice if they need it, have his finger on the pulse of the unit's moods, maintain moral amongst the fighting men, and give them an avenue to voice concerns and grievances informally and much more besides.

His primary job is to ensure the smooth, efficient running of a unit, and provides a safety net for both the enlisted men and officer class to help both bond better.

Unlike in popular western wishful thinking, there is no great undercurrent of resentment towards the CCP within the common citizenry or soldiers. People are not chaffing at some vast invisible, all pervasive leash just itching for the opportunity to overthrow their oppressors.

Sure people will grumble and vent, but few actually wants to overthrow the CCP, just like people can rage about the government in the west but not mean to overthrow their entire system of government.

Anyone within the PLA who wants to overthrow the CCP will, of course, run fowl of a Political Officer, but then, so would anyone who supports the (violent) overthrow of the governing system within any country and any military.

Most of the very few people who actually wants to overthrow the CCP are either delusional fools or western stooges anyways, and if such people have their way, China would go the same way as Syria, so I have little problem in anyone keeping such people from position of power to launch their mad schemes, but that's getting a little OT.
Click to expand...

Which begs the question then why is someone like this even needed then?
 
M

montyp165

Senior Member
solarz said:
Because the PLA inherited much of its military doctrine from the NRA, which itself learned much of its doctrine from German military advisors, and one of those things it inherited is a system of dual commanding officers.
Click to expand...

It's a mix of both the German and Soviet systems, since the NRA was trained by both during the 1920-1925 period for the Northern expeditions.
 
Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
solarz said:
Your original point was that PLA commissars were a kind of secret police whose duty was to report any sign of disloyalty. This is simply conjecture on your part.

As for a PLA officer speaking against the Party, it depends very much on how it was said, and under what circumstances. No one would care about a private conversation, but if it was said in public with a wide audience, then there would certainly be consequences. There is nothing unusual about that. US General McChrystal was forced to resign after criticizing the Obama administration. Another US General was fired for criticizing Hamid Karzai.
Click to expand...
All good points, but the US Army doesn't have "political officers." Oh nooo, our army is much too sophisticated for that; they're JAG officers instead, and they make sure the soldiers follow strict codes to fight PC wars. All kidding aside, I believe Commissars in the Red Army are hatchet men loyal not to the soldiers and officers they "support," but to the Party Chairman and the Communist Party. On your point about PLA officers criticizing the party being a function of how it's done, I'm willing to believe that's true in some circumstances, but removal of the CCP from direct chain of command isn't one of them.
 
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