Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

However we interpret, head on or not head on. keep in mind the interceptor and target missile 's path is going to intersect once and only once at a very specific time.
It's not the like the two pathes overlapped each other, if you miss that point at that very specific time, you won't have another opportunity, Do you agree on that?

Your concept is equivalent to you standing and blocking the path of target missile therefore if you don't get out of way, the target missile has no way to go through.

Oh geez, the anti-ship missile is not aiming for the barrel of the CIWS where all the bullets spit out. In that case, it would be heading straight for the bullets! The stream of lead from a CIWS can cover only one range of vectors that would hit the ship... others would miss entirely.

Besides, by the time a mach 3 missile is within 1 or 2 kilometers, it's momentum will punch a hole in the ship anyway, regardless of whether or not it's "intercepted" by a CIWS.

I am thinking what would be the best position for a CIWS so an AshM attacking the ship would be as "head on" as possible.

1. Kind of like 054, the CIWS is directly in the middle of the ship, where the AshM is prone to seek for the hit.

2. Or do it like the 052B/C, where you have two CIWS each at both ends of the ship. That way, the two CIWS can form an X or crossfire with their bullet streams.

Roger604 said:

Oh geez, the anti-ship missile is not aiming for the barrel of the CIWS where all the bullets spit out. In that case, it would be heading straight for the bullets! The stream of lead from a CIWS can cover only one range of vectors that would hit the ship... others would miss entirely.

Besides, by the time a mach 3 missile is within 1 or 2 kilometers, it's momentum will punch a hole in the ship anyway, regardless of whether or not it's "intercepted" by a CIWS.

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These geometry of these engagements in not what you imagine. A missile like Exocet or Moskit is aimed at the ship's beam where it has a good radar return, so things like CIWS or RAM are shooting more or less head on at the incoming round. Not preceisely but close enough. CIWS can definitey follow a missile that is corkscrewing or making the climb for a terminal dive. RAM has more than sufficient control authority to ourmaneuver a corkscrewing supersonic missile like Coyote and shoot it down. We do this in exercises.
Regarding the debris punching holes in ships, this is simply not true. In training exercises we shoot down target drones such as Coyote at mach 2.8 that is programmed to fly all the expected terminal maneuvers we know about that threat systems like Moskit fly. Coyote is pretty close in size and mass to a Moskit, actually flies faster and lower, and mimics Moskit in every way. We shoot them down in training exercises using live rounds of Standard, RAM and CIWS. Real all up ordinance is fired and these drones are blown to bits. No debris touches the ship. How that idea gained currency is beyond me. We also have Chukar to mimic things like C-802, MM-40 and certain subsonic versions of Klub with great fidelity. We shoot these down too. Debris hitting the ship is a non problem, it does not happen.
Missiles like RAM do not have to impact their target, that is why they carry proximity fuses of some discription. A near miss is actually what they require, so the rods in the warhead can chop into the missile.
In fleet testing RAM hits a supersonic target on the first try over 95% of the time. We've shot over 150 of these things and that is the actual success rate. Usual practice is to fire two missiles at each target to guarantee a kill. You guys debate as if the USN never actually fires a live round at a supersonic missile. We do, we know the geometry of these engagements and our systems are well designed to defeat known threats. There is a RIMPAC exercise going on in the Pacific right now, and at least 50 Chukar's are being expended, shot down by US and allied warships in these engagements. This is typical of a RIMPAC exercise, they occur semi-annually. Hundreds of drones are expended each year for training and weapons testing.
In any event, most of these missiles will be spoofed by the SLQ-32 and Nulka long before they enter the engagement envelope for RAM or CIWS.

man overbored said:

These geometry of these engagements in not what you imagine. A missile like Exocet or Moskit is aimed at the ship's beam where it has a good radar return, so things like CIWS or RAM are shooting more or less head on at the incoming round. Not preceisely but close enough. CIWS can definitey follow a missile that is corkscrewing or making the climb for a terminal dive. RAM has more than sufficient control authority to ourmaneuver a corkscrewing supersonic missile like Coyote and shoot it down. We do this in exercises..

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Does this depend on the fire control's prediction algorithm? which is written by programmer. I am just curious if the missile follows a eratic path, how do you guarrantee you will predict correctly?

lilzz said:

Does this depend on the fire control's prediction algorithm? which is written by programmer. I am just curious if the missile follows a eratic path, how do you guarrantee you will predict correctly?

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Both radar and infrared returns tell what the missile's path is as it happens and the ability for the computers monitoring the returns and sending updates to the missile (or for it to do so itself) hundreds or thousands of times a second if neccessary, and the missile's agility and manueverability are the key components.

A manuevering missile is still occupying the space it does from instant to instant and that space is being tracked and responded to by the tracking radar and thus the missile. With a proximity fuse, it is not likely that it could be eradic enough in some final manuever to escape the blast radius.

That's my read on it.

lilzz said:

Does this depend on the fire control's prediction algorithm? which is written by programmer. I am just curious if the missile follows a eratic path, how do you guarrantee you will predict correctly?

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The math is written by some of the best engineers ( not programmers but experienced engineers ) in the business based on our observations of threat systems in operation. There is a good reason our units shadow the exercises and test evolutions of other nations. We rely on our intellegence assets to give us data on a threat system, then our engineers use this to develope our response. The response is then tested thoroughly. Have a look.



Stuff blowing up in the desert, you have to love it.

man overbored said:

In training exercises we shoot down target drones such as Coyote at mach 2.8 that is programmed to fly all the expected terminal maneuvers we know about that threat systems like Moskit fly. Coyote is pretty close in size and mass to a Moskit, actually flies faster and lower, and mimics Moskit in every way. .

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What's highest march missile with evasive actions you folks ever shot down during training exercise?

In my discussion, hypersonic missile at mach 6 , I don't think it can do corkscrew action, therefore I limit it to acceleration.

King_Comm said:

The biggest problem engaging hypersonic missile is reaction time, Mach 6 means the missile is traveling at 2km per second, the reaction time for a CIWS is around 7-8 seconds, the maximum engage distance for is usually 2km, so the CIWS has to be able to find, and lock on to the target 18km away, and it has less than one second to shoot at the target, if the missile is large and armoured, the rounds fired in that time may not be sufficient to bring it down. RAM is slightly better, it has a range of 6km, so it has 3 seconds to shoot at the target.

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All of this is academic. There are no hypersonic missiles to be shot down. 3M80 and Kh-31 can only achieve the high mach speeds in the neighborhood of mach 2.5 at 40,000 feet. Once they come down to the sea surface they slow down well below mach 2. The technology is not there to make a hypersonic anti-ship missile.
In real life we shoot down Coyote's at around mach 2.5. Besides RAM all our missiles including Standard SM-2 and ESSM have shot Coyote down. The launch platform for a 3M80 has to make it through the carrier's air wing before it encounters SM-2. If it survives this and gets it's missile off SM-2, then ESSM, then RAM, and finally CIWS can engage it, plus the SLQ-32 will work with Nulka to spoof it off it's target. Have at it!

Roger604 said:

Oh geez, the anti-ship missile is not aiming for the barrel of the CIWS where all the bullets spit out. In that case, it would be heading straight for the bullets! The stream of lead from a CIWS can cover only one range of vectors that would hit the ship... others would miss entirely.

Besides, by the time a mach 3 missile is within 1 or 2 kilometers, it's momentum will punch a hole in the ship anyway, regardless of whether or not it's "intercepted" by a CIWS.

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all you need to is to have a missile explode near the AShM, the impact of blast will knock the AShM into a different path, possibly into the ocean. And think about this, if something pierces or does something to a supersonic missile from 1 km out, that may damage its seeker, that may knock it from its path. You don't even need a full connection to render an AShM useless.

All of this is academic. There are no hypersonic missiles to be shot down. 3M80 and Kh-31 can only achieve the high mach speeds in the neighborhood of mach 2.5 at 40,000 feet. Once they come down to the sea surface they slow down well below mach 2. The technology is not there to make a hypersonic anti-ship missile.
In real life we shoot down Coyote's at around mach 2.5. Besides RAM all our missiles including Standard SM-2 and ESSM have shot Coyote down. The launch platform for a 3M80 has to make it through the carrier's air wing before it encounters SM-2. If it survives this and gets it's missile off SM-2, then ESSM, then RAM, and finally CIWS can engage it, plus the SLQ-32 will work with Nulka to spoof it off it's target. Have at it!

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you are actually wrong on this point. I believe Sunburn maintains a lo flying profile through out at around 20 m. It should be flying at mach 2 and probably faster (mach 2.5) at terminal phase. With something like Club, it cruises at subsonic speed and then speeds up to mach 2.9 in terminal phase. In both cases, the terminal phase should be under 20 m. So, technology for this does exist. Now, that doesn't mean it's hard for USN to shoot down, but going mach 2.5 at close to sea level is possible.