Issues on Intercepting Hypersonic Missile.

What makes a CVBG effective is that it benefits from the Information Network and Sensor Network on Land, Sea and Space. I doubt a stand alone AEGIS destoryer, in the hands of Pakistan all by itself will be able to deal with 30 klubs launched at them from a submarine. Of course, again it depends on how much info the USA is willing to share with Pakistan at the time of war. Its basically an entire system against an entire system, AEGIS, all by itself will be much less effective without input from other sensors.

If the Klub can be re-designed to have a range of 500-1000 km, with or without its supersonic final sprint (sizzler variant), it becomes a serious threat. But then only somebody like the USSR or Russia has the capability to detect and track a CVBG.

I think Indian subs can get close to an AEGIS Pakistani ship and if it lets loose a salvo of klubs, a few might get through, due to limited or zero advance warning.

Stand alone AEGIS ship will detect Klubs only when it is around 30 km away and with the final sprint, it will be a close call.

Lets not forget AEGIS ships in CVBG can count on the Tomcats and the Hornets to take out a substantial number of missiles, so that they only have to deal with a handful.

Of course, assuming it's a single ship :V

harishkumar09 said:

With Chinese ships which are much better, it may be necessary to launch 3-4 or 4-5 Brahmos per ship to destroy it.

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Actually, China has extremely robust defenses even against the Brahmos, which is basically a (renamed) Yakhont that China has access to from Russia anyway. For example, China's Kilo submarines have the Klub missile. China has it's own high supersonic anti-ship missile. Those ones are the most advanced.

Something like the Brahmos has a very large RCS and is burning hot. PLAN ships like the air defense 052C can detect and track them with its AESA radars and IR sensors and fire the ~200 km range HHQ-9 missiles at them. PLAN ships also have an inner layer of air defense of RAM and CIWS.

It's very hard for less than a simultaneous volley of at least 40 Brahmos to overwhelm a 052C. I don't think any country is capable of doing that for now or in the near future.

Roger604 said:

Actually, China has extremely robust defenses even against the Brahmos, which is basically a (renamed) Yakhont that China has access to from Russia anyway. For example, China's Kilo submarines have the Klub missile. China has it's own high supersonic anti-ship missile. Those ones are the most advanced.

Something like the Brahmos has a very large RCS and is burning hot. PLAN ships like the air defense 052C can detect and track them with its AESA radars and IR sensors and fire the ~200 km range HHQ-9 missiles at them. PLAN ships also have an inner layer of air defense of RAM and CIWS.

It's very hard for less than a simultaneous volley of at least 40 Brahmos to overwhelm a 052C. I don't think any country is capable of doing that for now or in the near future.

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China has RAM (or its equivalent) ? I am surprised. What is called?

Well, Brahmos in Hi-Lo mode is easy to intercept for many advanced nations. India herself could do it with the weapons on her destroyers. The question is the ability to intercept the Brahmos in the Lo-Lo mode. While it is true that it would be easy to detect due to high IR radiation, you have very little warning. Flying at 10m above sea-level, you have a warning when it is 40km. You then have to respond within 40 secs. With its terminal maneuvering, it will be difficult.

I think Brahmos will be useful against advanced navies only if it has a much longer range in the lo-lo mode. The supersonic part should be a part of the missile which gets activated some 50 km away from the target. In other words it should be something like the sizzler variant of the Klub. A 1000 km ranged weapon with the last 50 km in supersonic mode would be the best option. This will guarantee good standoff distance. Plus India should also go in for the fully subsonic cruise missile like tomahawk. A mix of supersonic and subsonic brahmos (entire flight profile) would be the best solution to take down the sophisticated ships of the PLAN.

Plus Brahmos is also going to be used in the Land Attack Mode. It is a tri-services weapon. It will be used againt C&C centres, armoured columns and high-value targets. In these circumstances, it does not have to worry about sophisticated air-defences and will function mostly like a TBM. Here also it can be used in the Lo-Lo mode. Recent tests were conducted to demonstrate its capability to pick a single building amidst urban clutter. Perhaps to simplify manufacturing logistics, DRDO and NPO Mash decided to risk the high-probability of interception in the Hi-Lo mode against warships. It might have occurred to the Indians that it is cheaper (in terms of time and money) to throw 40-50 Brahmos against Chinese warships in the Hi-Lo mode rather than make separate cruise missile optimized for land and sea targets.

harishkumar09 said:

I am shocked about this talk of illuminators. I thought with the coming of PESA/AESA, there was no longer this division of detection,tracking,engagement/illuminator radars. The PESA/AESA would be able to perform all roles. In PESA it will be time-sharing, and in AESA, the radar surface itself can be divided into different spatial zones, with one set of TR modules performing detection, another zone tracking, another engagement/illuminator roles apart from provision for time-sharing.

A PESA could illuminate several tens of missiles by jumping its beam around, illuminating each missile for a few milliseconds. An AESA faced with a saturation attack could easily transition the entire radar surface area to illumination mode, and direct multiple beams on multiple incoming missiles and defeat all of them . I am sure a SPY-1 AEGIS radar with its large surface area could illuminate at least 20 missiles simultaneously and if it uses time-sharing mode as well, at least double that number.

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SPY-1 operates in S-band, which is great for long range but crappy for terminal illumination because it is not precise enough. The Mk99 illuminators operate in X-band, which along with C-band is used for terminal illumination. S- and L-band radars are used for volume search. The Thales APAR (AESA) is an X-band radar which is installed on the Sachsen and de Zeven Provincien class ships and is used for both volume search and terminal illumination, but its max search range is something like 150km, whereas the SPY-1 supposedly has a range of around 400km. This tradeoff between range and targeting precision is what led the USN to develop its dual band radar (both AESA) for the DDX class, one radar in S-band for volume search, one in X-band for surface search and target illumination.

harishkumar09 said:

China has RAM (or its equivalent) ? I am surprised. What is called?

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The export version is called FL-3000N. The more advanced domestic version is called HQ-10.



Of course, China also has CIWS, so it has the same close-in defenses together with comparable electronic warfare (using AESA radars) and decoys as the US destroyers.

harishkumar09 said:

Well, Brahmos in Hi-Lo mode is easy to intercept for many advanced nations. India herself could do it with the weapons on her destroyers. The question is the ability to intercept the Brahmos in the Lo-Lo mode. While it is true that it would be easy to detect due to high IR radiation, you have very little warning. Flying at 10m above sea-level, you have a warning when it is 40km. You then have to respond within 40 secs. With its terminal maneuvering, it will be difficult.

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Chinese ships have helicopters. Such a physically large and hot object would be detectable far away. The HHQ-9 have ~200 km range, longer than the range of the ASM itself. It would take a simultaneous attack of at least 40 ramjet ASMs to overwhelm a single 052C, given its multilayer defenses.

harishkumar09 said:

I think Brahmos will be useful against advanced navies only if it has a much longer range in the lo-lo mode. The supersonic part should be a part of the missile which gets activated some 50 km away from the target. In other words it should be something like the sizzler variant of the Klub. A 1000 km ranged weapon with the last 50 km in supersonic mode would be the best option. This will guarantee good standoff distance.

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China has developed this kind of ASM already -- subsonic sea-skimmer combined with high supersonic end-game. China is probably the most advanced country the world in terms of anti-ship missiles.

harishkumar09 said:

Plus India should also go in for the fully subsonic cruise missile like tomahawk. A mix of supersonic and subsonic brahmos (entire flight profile) would be the best solution to take down the sophisticated ships of the PLAN.

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China already has a sophisticated subsonic ASM and has been exporting them for years now -- the YJ-83. China is currently able to launch massive missile saturation attacks on the order of dozens if not a hundred YJ-83 missiles from air, coast, surface and submarine platforms. Look at the Type 022 FAC.

harishkumar09 said:

Plus Brahmos is also going to be used in the Land Attack Mode. It is a tri-services weapon. It will be used againt C&C centres, armoured columns and high-value targets. In these circumstances, it does not have to worry about sophisticated air-defences and will function mostly like a TBM. Here also it can be used in the Lo-Lo mode.

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A mach 3 ramjet is easily detectable by its IR signature. China manufactures and exports AWACS and AEW aircraft. As soon as the missile is launched, the PLAAF will be able to detect it and vector in J-10.

harishkumar09 said:

It might have occurred to the Indians that it is cheaper (in terms of time and money) to throw 40-50 Brahmos against Chinese warships in the Hi-Lo mode rather than make separate cruise missile optimized for land and sea targets.

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I don't think they took into account that China operates naval helicopters that can mount a very sensitive IR sensor. They probably also didn't take into account China operates AWACS and AEW aircraft, which can mount an even more sensitive IR sensor.

China deploys both bulky Russian ramjets (Sunburns and Klubs) and subsonic YJ-83 in the PLAN but prefers the subsonic ones. China's operational ability to mount an anti-ship missile attack is probably the best in the world. I haven't seen any other country do any anti-ship attack military exercises at all.

Roger604 said:

It would take a simultaneous attack of at least 40 ramjet ASMs to overwhelm a single 052C, given its multilayer defenses.

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Stop throwing out random numbers that you have absolutely no evidence for.

ZTZ99 said:

SPY-1 operates in S-band, which is great for long range but crappy for terminal illumination because it is not precise enough. The Mk99 illuminators operate in X-band, which along with C-band is used for terminal illumination. S- and L-band radars are used for volume search. The Thales APAR (AESA) is an X-band radar which is installed on the Sachsen and de Zeven Provincien class ships and is used for both volume search and terminal illumination, but its max search range is something like 150km, whereas the SPY-1 supposedly has a range of around 400km. This tradeoff between range and targeting precision is what led the USN to develop its dual band radar (both AESA) for the DDX class, one radar in S-band for volume search, one in X-band for surface search and target illumination.

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I understand the division in labour in terms of frequency bands, but I was just thinking there are too few illuminators onboard the destroyers escorting the CVBG. Perhaps an AESA or PESA in the X-band could terminally illuminate more number of missiles simultaneously than all the MK99 illuminators put together.

Or alternatively go for ARH missiles, but even here we would need multiple beams to guide several of them to their acquisition baskets.

There may be a place for Mach-3 and even the Mach-5 Brahmos 1 and 2 for certain tactics in the battlefield, both land and sea, but I think India should also earnestly begin developing subsonic cruise missiles for both the land and sea roles.

Assuming the masses of Chinese Air Defense radars are 16 meters of height, the maximum detection range via radar of 29,500 km. At Mach 3, that'd put the time to intercept at about 30 seconds. Advocates of FLIRs wouldn't be too off too, as even the most powerful FLIR systems would only be able to make visual contact with it at 25,000 meters. 30 seconds may seem short, but it is enough, actually, assuming the Ship is already at Red Alert.

In 30 seconds time, a U.S.N. ship with AEGIS can launch up to 10 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles, but realistically, we'd probably launch about 2 at a single AShM. Terminal maneuvers like a S-motion may seem great, but in reality, it exposes the missile's sides to incoming weapons, assuming the interception point is linear. For comparison, the 9K22 Tunguska's 9M311 missile has a 9 kg Frag warhead, it'll make a 5 meter radius circle and destroy anything inside. The ESSM's warhead is 39 kg, it'll make a larger circle. Two would be enough to catch a Brahmos or Klub.

Asides from that, the RIM-116 is probably one of the best CIWSs out there in terms of catching Supersonic Seaskimmers. In regards to China's ability, ESSM, RIM-116, and Goalkeeper aren't difficult technologies to incorporate.

ZTZ99 said:

Stop throwing out random numbers that you have absolutely no evidence for.

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The capabilities of the Type 052C is ample evidence. For example, did you know it uses AESA radars more advanced than Arleigh Burke's PESA SPY-1?

harishkumar09 said:

There may be a place for Mach-3 and even the Mach-5 Brahmos 1 and 2 for certain tactics in the battlefield, both land and air, but I think India should also earnestly begin developing subsonic cruise missiles for both the land and sea roles.

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Russian controls the ramjet technology to Brahmos and hasn't agreed to share it. I doubt India will be doing any development on its own other than tagging along with Russia and trying to learn something along the way.