that's a strategy th israelis wanna employ but it doesnt actually make anyone more or less legitimate. you dont become more legitimate because the westerners say you are a good guy. as long as the antagony is there extremists will always find their source of legitimacy.
Israeli preparing for 'all out' war (Ground Invasion)
- Thread starter alwaysfresh
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that's a strategy th israelis wanna employ but it doesnt actually make anyone more or less legitimate. you dont become more legitimate because the westerners say you are a good guy. as long as the antagony is there extremists will always find their source of legitimacy.
AssassinsMace
Lieutenant General
Has anyone heard of this tidbit about the "Chinese" made rockets being used by Hamas has serial numbers that identify them as water pipes?
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
Where was the source of that bit of titbit?
I saw the same thing. Unfortunately, the Western media does a terrible job at understanding the difference between a Qassam rocket, and a Grad.
The Qassam's are home-built, usually constructed with pipe or heavy tubing. Some of those pipes happen to be to be made in China - hardly a "China connection".
Hamas has also smuggled in Katyusha-type rockets, however, that are factory made. These have much longer ranges, and typically impact with much more force - leaving fewer identifiable parts. Some of those have also been made in China. No one is suggesting, however that "China is supplying Hamas". China was merely the original manufacturer. After countless middlemen, where they end up is hardly China's responsibility.
Religious Fundamentalism at Its Worst
I would agree that eventually, out of sheer fatigue if nothing else, the Gazans will return to the negotiating table, and the Palestinians will probably receive a settlement very similar to what the Clinton administration had worked out in 2000. This is essentially what happened between Israel and Egypt in the 1970s - war fatigue finally set it.
This will not happen in Gaza, however, while Hamas remains in control.
There seems to be a breakdown on too many fronts, in understanding just what Hamas is aiming for, and what this organization really is. If Hamas was a secular organization I might agree that their objectives and means could evolve over time. But they are not. They are a band of religious fanatics with an agenda for genocide:
Their ties to Iran only reinforce this mindset, as illustrated by the following clip from an Iranian scholar, which was broadcast on Hamas TV:
Does anyone still not get what this organization is all about?
Yes, I am sure that Hamas, just like their fundamentalist brethren in al Qaeda, are just misunderstood when they talk about wanting to wipe Israel or the US off the face of the earth. I'm sure that they're really nice guys. Just stop blockading their ability to rearm and they'll show you just how reasonable they can be. Really.
I am not without sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I am, however, without sympathy for those who would advance that cause through terrorism. Religious fanaticism, of whatever variety, has brought nothing but misery to humankind. It was true of Europe during the dark ages, and it true in the Middle East today. Hamas, with their genocidal objectives and their stated policy for using civilians as human shields to win a propaganda war, represents the worst of what blind religious hatred can bring to mankind.
I would agree that eventually, out of sheer fatigue if nothing else, the Gazans will return to the negotiating table, and the Palestinians will probably receive a settlement very similar to what the Clinton administration had worked out in 2000. This is essentially what happened between Israel and Egypt in the 1970s - war fatigue finally set it.
This will not happen in Gaza, however, while Hamas remains in control.
There seems to be a breakdown on too many fronts, in understanding just what Hamas is aiming for, and what this organization really is. If Hamas was a secular organization I might agree that their objectives and means could evolve over time. But they are not. They are a band of religious fanatics with an agenda for genocide:
Their ties to Iran only reinforce this mindset, as illustrated by the following clip from an Iranian scholar, which was broadcast on Hamas TV:
Does anyone still not get what this organization is all about?
Yes, I am sure that Hamas, just like their fundamentalist brethren in al Qaeda, are just misunderstood when they talk about wanting to wipe Israel or the US off the face of the earth. I'm sure that they're really nice guys. Just stop blockading their ability to rearm and they'll show you just how reasonable they can be. Really.
I am not without sympathy for the Palestinian cause. I am, however, without sympathy for those who would advance that cause through terrorism. Religious fanaticism, of whatever variety, has brought nothing but misery to humankind. It was true of Europe during the dark ages, and it true in the Middle East today. Hamas, with their genocidal objectives and their stated policy for using civilians as human shields to win a propaganda war, represents the worst of what blind religious hatred can bring to mankind.
The_Zergling
Junior Member
Re: Religious Fundamentalism at Its Worst
In this specific instance, you actually have a blockade of Gaza - of COURSE there will be "human shields" because they have nowhere to go. Stop repeating this talking point because it is simply propaganda, at least as far as this specific conflict is concerned. What Israel is doing is just as bad, if not worse than what Hamas has been doing, regardless of intention.
In this specific instance, you actually have a blockade of Gaza - of COURSE there will be "human shields" because they have nowhere to go. Stop repeating this talking point because it is simply propaganda, at least as far as this specific conflict is concerned. What Israel is doing is just as bad, if not worse than what Hamas has been doing, regardless of intention.
Re: Religious Fundamentalism at Its Worst
Israel has the means whereby they could commit absolute genocide and annihilate the entire population of Gaza if they wanted to...and yet they do not. They do not preach it, and they have not attempted it. What they have done has been to retaliate harshly when they have been attacked and they are taking down the Hamas infrastructure and leadership...even if it means that the refuges that Hamas uses are destroyed in the process.
This brings the war to the Palestinian people...who put Hamas in power...but it is hardly genocide or terrorism.
On the other hand, Hamas preaches genocide and their every action shows that they will use whatever means they can to obtain it..even their own children. They glorify using their women and children as shield and instruments of death. If they had the means, the weapons to accomplish it, they would. There is little or no doubt of this in any ones mind.
This sets the two side apart in completely different categories with no moral comparison whatsoever.
Sorry, but that is simply not true.
Israel has the means whereby they could commit absolute genocide and annihilate the entire population of Gaza if they wanted to...and yet they do not. They do not preach it, and they have not attempted it. What they have done has been to retaliate harshly when they have been attacked and they are taking down the Hamas infrastructure and leadership...even if it means that the refuges that Hamas uses are destroyed in the process.
This brings the war to the Palestinian people...who put Hamas in power...but it is hardly genocide or terrorism.
On the other hand, Hamas preaches genocide and their every action shows that they will use whatever means they can to obtain it..even their own children. They glorify using their women and children as shield and instruments of death. If they had the means, the weapons to accomplish it, they would. There is little or no doubt of this in any ones mind.
This sets the two side apart in completely different categories with no moral comparison whatsoever.
And thats where we disagree
1. As you have said. The people have elected Hamas. We like democracy but this time they elected "wrong" and we dont talk to them, and try to make life in Gaza intolerable in the hope of the people turning against Hamas.
2. Again, the point of the Hamas charter. Thats were the genocide talk comes from. They are willing to remove this if they get concessions.
Hamas is trying to free their country from an illegal (after international law) occupation and blocade.
3. Funny how one part is terrorists, but as long as the US blockades every attempt at a UN resolutions Israel is shiny white. Try reading the resolutions that has been vetoed by the US alone.
The greatest suffering is as allways on the palestinian side.
WOULD ANYONE HERE LET THEIR COUNTRY BE OCCUPIED WITHOUT DOING NOTHING? I DISAGREE WITH THE METHODS OF HAMAS, BUTS ITS NOT THAT LONG AGO WE FIREBOMBED 600.000 GERMANS AND 900.000 JAPANESE TO THEIR DEATHS TO FREE OUR COUNTRIES. I`M REALLY GLAD THAT DIFFERENT SETS OF RULES APPLY TO OUR FRIENDS AND OUR FOES.
1. As you have said. The people have elected Hamas. We like democracy but this time they elected "wrong" and we dont talk to them, and try to make life in Gaza intolerable in the hope of the people turning against Hamas.
2. Again, the point of the Hamas charter. Thats were the genocide talk comes from. They are willing to remove this if they get concessions.
Hamas is trying to free their country from an illegal (after international law) occupation and blocade.
3. Funny how one part is terrorists, but as long as the US blockades every attempt at a UN resolutions Israel is shiny white. Try reading the resolutions that has been vetoed by the US alone.
The greatest suffering is as allways on the palestinian side.
WOULD ANYONE HERE LET THEIR COUNTRY BE OCCUPIED WITHOUT DOING NOTHING? I DISAGREE WITH THE METHODS OF HAMAS, BUTS ITS NOT THAT LONG AGO WE FIREBOMBED 600.000 GERMANS AND 900.000 JAPANESE TO THEIR DEATHS TO FREE OUR COUNTRIES. I`M REALLY GLAD THAT DIFFERENT SETS OF RULES APPLY TO OUR FRIENDS AND OUR FOES.
Israel has talked with and honored cease fires with Hamas. In return, Hamas has fired rockets into Israel. Israel has not sought to destroy the Palestinians, but the leadership of the Palestinians in Gaza has a part of their charter to destroy Israel. And now they hve the audacity to say they are willing to concede genocide only if their demands are met? Sounds a like nothing more than bully extortion, blackmail and pure threat to me.And thats where we disagree
As you have said. The people have elected Hamas. We like democracy but this time they elected "wrong" and we dont talk to them, and try to make life in Gaza intolerable in the hope of the people turning against Hamas.
Again, the point of the Hamas charter. Thats were the genocide talk comes from. They are willing to remove this if they get concessions.
Hamas is trying to free their country from an illegal (after international law) occupation and blocade.
3. Funny how one part is terrorists, but as long as the US blockades every attempt at a UN resolutions Israel is shiny white. Try reading the resolutions that has been vetoed by the US alone.
The greatest suffering is as allways on the palestinian side.
The fact is, the reason the Japanese and the Germans suffered the fate they did in World War II was precisely because of their willingness to elect and support governments that were willing to, and went about annihilating whole other peoples. Precisely what Hamas is threatening with Israel.
Not what Israel is doing or attempting in reverse in the least.
No...the standard is the same. Abject tyranny and stated aims of genocide have to be dealt with in the same way...even when the people doing it have the support of their own populations.
The issue is not democracy...if people choose to support genocide, then the choice to genocide becomes the overriding issue.
The lesson of World War II was to what extents the allies had to go to defeat the militaries and break the will of those peoples who made and supported such choises.
And they did defeat them, and they have been peace loving ever since.
It is a tragedy and a pity that such lessons have to be learned again when the conequences of it have already been so aptly proven by history and so dearly paid for.
1. The cease fire said that Israel should lift the blockade, which hasn`t been done. The Israelis also conducted a raid on Nov 4 killing 6 Hamas members, of course in violation of the cease fire.
2. So written words of Israels annihilation is worse than holding 1,5mill people in hopeless poverty and breaking international law?
3. Again and again. the palestinians havent commited genocide and are under no circumstances capable of it. they act because of the conditiones they live under.
4. They don`t choose genocide, thats an ignorant statment. Hamas runs a lot of welfare programs and fights for a palestinian nation. You really believe Hamas has the goal of removing Israel from the map? redicolous.
5. Thats called war crimes, and we should be happy we where on the winning side for more than one reason. Also, please tell me one people whose will we broke!
6. This time around they have been givin good peace accords. not like the palestinians. We learned that giving bad ones, like after WW1 only creates problems. Israel hasn`t learned that lesson yet, and will continue to be at war until they do.
7. The wrong lessons are learned. Especially the Israelis should know how it is not to have a country, not to have any hope and not have any rights.
Comparing Hamas and nazi germany? can you do that with straight face.