Israeli preparing for 'all out' war (Ground Invasion)

optionsss said:

They were afraid, that's why they have and landing gear automatically fallen off after plane take off. Many were forced into the airplane in a way.




If Israel, is willing to take it that far. They would have to destroy entire Gaza strip, cut off all essential supplies, and kill hundreds of thousands people. Yes, the Palestinians will be forced to turn against Hamas. But this only guarantees short term peace, and it could only get rid off Hamas. The suicide attacks and the rocket fire will continue, it would just be organized by small time terrorist groups.

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We also disagree. The Japanese were as dedicated, if not more, in their fanatacism as the Islamic Jihadists. The result of what happened to them in World War II is clear to see today. They have wholly rejected the fantacism and adopted rational ideologies and governmentala forms.

The Palestinians can do the same...and I do not believe it will require Israel to kill hundreds of thosuands of them to get there...though I do believe the bill will be heavy on both sides, just the same.

In the end, I believe long term peace can be obtained (just as it has occurred with the Japanese)...and, sadly, tragically, is not likely to be obtained in any other way, as history has already shown.

But that's just my own opinion.

K M T said:

Question:
Are these cluster munition used by IDF?
[qimg]http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45344000/jpg/_45344058_shell2_226i_afp.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4043/idf1qm8.jpg[/qimg]

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Those are white phosphorous weapons.
)

Just go to google and type in "israel white phosphorous weapons" and you'll see all the controversy over them

We also disagree. The Japanese were as dedicated, if not more, in their fanatacism as the Islamic Jihadists. The result of what happened to them in World War II is clear to see today. They have wholly rejected the fantacism and adopted rational ideologies and governmentala forms.

The Palestinians can do the same...and I do not believe it will require Israel to kill hundreds of thosuands of them to get there...though I do believe the bill will be heavy on both sides, just the same.

In the end, I believe long term peace can be obtained (just as it has occurred with the Japanese)...and, sadly, tragically, is not likely to be obtained in any other way, as history has already shown.

But that's just my own opinion.

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I was just pointing out many Japanese did not want to die, but were bend over by their governing system. I sure hope Japan has learned its lessons from WWII.

Well, I don't want to argue about the numbers. Israel will have to do enough to convince Palestinians if they don't turn against Hamas, very terrible things will happen to them. But, I don't think this is the way to get rid of suicide bombings and rocket fire.

Israel will have to do some thing to ease the animosity of the Palestinians and convince them to mind their own business and build a strong economy is the way to go. I hope that day comes. It is really a pain to see innocent people die for no good reason.

optionsss said:

I was just pointing out many Japanese did not want to die, but were bend over by their governing system. I sure hope Japan has learned its lessons from WWII.

Well, I don't want to argue about the numbers. Israel will have to do enough to convince Palestinians if they don't turn against Hamas, very terrible things will happen to them. But, I don't think this is the way to get rid of suicide bombings and rocket fire.

Israel will have to do some thing to ease the animosity of the Palestinians and convince them to mind their own business and build a strong economy is the way to go. I hope that day comes. It is really a pain to see innocent people die for no good reason.

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What Israel can do is to play the hearts and minds campaign that has worked so well for the British and Canadians... in the territories they do control, provide aid and signature projects to build trust in each other. If the Israeli's can change how they are viewed by the locals, they can turn them against Hamas.

The way to stop the rocket attacks would be under UN observations:

1. stop the illegal occupations of Palestinian territoty
2. remove the (again illegal under international) settlements on palestinian territory.
3.Remove the de facto blokade of Gaza. Food has to be discarded after waiting at check points.

Israel went into Gaza to stop the rocket attacks, but the rocket attacks occure because Israel is occupying/ blockading Gaza.
(Hamas is willing to alter its charter if above mentioned points are met.)

Terrorism / resistance happens when people live in poverty and have no hope.
There are no suicide bombers in St Barts.
Only Israel (and US through pressure) can change this.
This military action is at best a short term solution and will breed more hatred.

Are we forgetting the religious zeolots outside this conflict that have a stake in the outcome? They don't want peace between the Israelis and Palestinians (Arabs) because of their beliefs. Can't have you know who return without one of the players in control where they will be destroyed beforehand because they don't believe in you know whose return.

Skorzeny said:

The way to stop the rocket attacks would be under UN observations:

1. stop the illegal occupations of Palestinian territoty
2. remove the (again illegal under international) settlements on palestinian territory.
3.Remove the de facto blokade of Gaza. Food has to be discarded after waiting at check points.

Israel went into Gaza to stop the rocket attacks, but the rocket attacks occure because Israel is occupying/ blockading Gaza.
(Hamas is willing to alter its charter if above mentioned points are met.)

Terrorism / resistance happens when people live in poverty and have no hope.
There are no suicide bombers in St Barts.
Only Israel (and US through pressure) can change this.
This military action is at best a short term solution and will breed more hatred.

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You're rather sweeping Hamas' responsibility for all of this under the carpet. Hamas has only said that it would agree to a 30 year "ceasefire" if Israel withdrew to its 1967 borders - not a permanent settlement. All very well, but what happens after 30 years and what would there be to stop more attacks from territory Israel withdrew from?

Both sides are at fault - it's no good pointing the finger at just one party. Israel needs to indicate it is willing to withdraw from the West Bank and share Jerusalem, but Hamas needs to also say it can accept a two-state solution, will make a permanent peace, stop engaging in terrorist activity and form a Palestinian unity government.

That might be difficult for Israel and Hamas, but they've got to bite on the bullet and do it. If they allow themselves to be dominated by the reactionaries they can't complain when it blows up in their faces.

As for the immediate campaign, I think that Israel will be able to claim it has met its "objectives" almost anytime soon (and Hamas will just need to say it has survived). The issue is how the ceasefire can be arranged and what can happen immediately afterwards. Although there has supposedly been movement towards an agreement, the two sides remain quite far apart. How long will the violence continue - days, weeks or even longer?

Ofcourse Hamas allso have to share the responsility for this situation, but its only Israel who has the power to solve the larger problem which this is a part of.
Hamas has in negotiations said that it is willing to change its charter and accept a two state solution. Citing their charter is just an excuse for not doing whats necessary.

Millitant organizations tend to work in similar ways:

They cannot enter into a prolonged cease fire before getting something in return. Doing so would lead to the Active service members being demotivated, quitting or forming own groups. An exaple would be (P)IRA being lured into an extended cease fire in the 70s (not sure about the years) and being severly weakened.

On the other hand a popular millitant organization cannot continue uts attacks when a peace accord would greatly benefits its followers. The need its popular following to continue its activities.
So Hamas logically has to agree to a two state solution with removal of the blokade and settlements, which they ofcourse have said in talks.

I`m not saying that Hamas has no fault, but to solve a problem we need to speak with our enemies, not our friends.
The problem is not the rockets , but 1,5 mill people living without hope. ofcourse they will resist.

Skorzeny said:

only Israel who has the power to solve the larger problem which this is a part of.

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Not true. It's up to the Israelis and Palestinians. For example, how can Israel settle anything when there are two Palestinian groups that claim to be governments in their own right? It can't - they need to form a unity government as I said.

If you say that Hamas is willing to accept a two-state solution, then Israel can say it is open to the same. The exact detail has to be negotiated, but arguably talks can't happen until Hamas changes its charter and makes a public pledge rather than saying it would be willing to recognise Israel in the future.

It also has to stop attacking Israel because you can't negotiate under those sorts of conditions.

The problem is not the rockets

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Tell that to the Israelis who live in fear of them.

I think the way the Israel-Palestinian conflict ends is that violence continues and continues until changing economic, social, political and geopolitical conditions combined with mutural fatigue cause the violence to just fizzle out. Perhaps Israel will make a settlement with Fatah. Perhaps there will be an extended ceasefire with Hamas. We don't know. But what history does tell us is that at some point, conditions will change and this problem will slowly peter out. This current war is part of it; the massive death toll to the Palestinians for no apparent gain I think contributes to "war fatigue" on the part of the Palestinians. I get the sense that in this latest war, the Palestinian public reaction will be more resigned and angry in general, rather than the rage directed specifically at Israel. I think the absolute futility of Hamas's rocket attacks compared with the very disproportionate death caused by the Israeli response is part of the reason why this change might be occuring. It's like this same scenario keeps happening again and again, and each time it becomes a little more pointless for the Palestinian people.


In any case, the violence will continue. There will probably be another war in Lebanon. Israel should at least pursue a "divide and conquer" strategy, making peace with Fatah and with Syria (who has been probing for peace for quite a while) so that Fatah appears more legitimate, and only Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas remain resisting. They will loose much legitimacy, especially once the example of peace exists.