Israeli preparing for 'all out' war (Ground Invasion)

pla101prc said:

honestly the more israel do this, the stronger these terrorist groups are gonna get. israel knows this. but it seems that they cannot stop right now, its like riding on a tiger's back, if they stop, they lose. but if they go on, it is not in their best interest either. israel has been sending mixed messages, talking about how they think they are nearing their objectives...prolly as a result of the US bailing on them on the UN vote. now the US is turning back and giving them support again by shipping a crap load of ammos. but even so the US still cannot achieve its aim, because iran didnt move a muscle...which is very smart.

Click to expand...

Here's the thing - given that I'm fairly certain that the Israeli government doesn't actually intend to kill each and every single Palestinian, what do they expect will happen when the dust settles? Given the huge amount of suffering (warranted or unwarranted, depending on your political leanings), it seems quite likely that any group that arises if or when Hamas is destroyed would actually be even more extreme.

Basically, Israel isn't really giving the Palestinians much of an option - some have correctly noted that Hamas was technically democratically elected, but was ignored an ostracized by the US and Israel, making it seem like they weren't really interested in Palestinian democracy, just the results.

While this is somewhat true, the Iraqi elections were held at roughly the same time as the Palestinian ones in which Hamas won, and some noted that you couldn't have a truly free and fair election in Iraq while the country was still being occupied by the United States - yet few have noted that the Palestinian election was also under occupation. Thus, Hamas was not really democratically elected in the sense that Palestinians didn't really have a chance for serious elections under Israeli control, and meaningful self-determination. To me, this highlights the need for an end to the occupation so as to stop the vicious cycle, and it's much easier for the more powerful party to do so.

It was mentioned earlier and it still baffles me why Israel has not taken control of the Gaza border with Egypt. This seems to me to be the most obvious way for Israel to gain control of the flow of arms and money into Gaza. It would put all of the cross border tunnels out of business.

The_Zergling said:

Basically, Israel isn't really giving the Palestinians much of an option - some have correctly noted that Hamas was technically democratically elected, but was ignored an ostracized by the US and Israel, making it seem like they weren't really interested in Palestinian democracy, just the results.

Click to expand...

It seems that this is just another of the so many missed opportunities for peace in this war. Perhaps if Israel and the West had been more willing to tolerate Hamas and build faith, there could have been an opening for the peace process. Now we really can only hope that Hamas is destroyed enough so that Fatah wins back Gaza and can negotiate peace with Israel.

It was mentioned earlier and it still baffles me why Israel has not taken control of the Gaza border with Egypt. This seems to me to be the most obvious way for Israel to gain control of the flow of arms and money into Gaza. It would put all of the cross border tunnels out of business.

Click to expand...

Well Israel was not able to stop tunnel traffic when it was occupying the entire strip so probably going in now wouldn't do much good. However I still believe they should make a major incursion into Rafah and search for tunnel entrances, as well as possibly dig pits to sow mines underground to make it harder to re-dig the tunnels.

Finn McCool said:

It seems that this is just another of the so many missed opportunities for peace in this war. Perhaps if Israel and the West had been more willing to tolerate Hamas and build faith, there could have been an opening for the peace process. Now we really can only hope that Hamas is destroyed enough so that Fatah wins back Gaza and can negotiate peace with Israel.

Click to expand...

I politely disagree with you.

I am one who truly believes that peace in the region won't come about under any circumstances as long as both of Israel and Hamas exist.

It's Hamas' goal to destroy political Israel (the country, not the people) and see that land back under a "Palestine" country. It is Israel's intention for that not to happen at all, even if it means killing Palestinian civilians to do so.

This is one conflict that will only be solved by belligerent, military means.

To destroy Hamas, Israel will have to destroy the movement and that means killing all the members and those who will possibly become future Hamas militants (thus one of the reasons for the blockade of water and electricity maybe). That includes civilians.

To destroy Israel -- well, that is a much tougher challenge for Hamas. I don't think they will ever achieve it though, but they seem determined to try to undermine Israel as much as possible.

I don't supporter either side particularly. I just want to see some military conflict and (hopefully) some decent strategies.

ccL1 said:

I politely disagree with you.

I am one who truly believes that peace in the region won't come about under any circumstances as long as both of Israel and Hamas exist.

It's Hamas' goal to destroy political Israel (the country, not the people) and see that land back under a "Palestine" country. It is Israel's intention for that not to happen at all, even if it means killing Palestinian civilians to do so.

This is one conflict that will only be solved by belligerent, military means.

To destroy Hamas, Israel will have to destroy the movement and that means killing all the members and those who will possibly become future Hamas militants (thus one of the reasons for the blockade of water and electricity maybe). That includes civilians.

To destroy Israel -- well, that is a much tougher challenge for Hamas. I don't think they will ever achieve it though, but they seem determined to try to undermine Israel as much as possible.

I don't supporter either side particularly. I just want to see some military conflict and (hopefully) some decent strategies.

Click to expand...

hamas can be weakened but not destroyed. as long as it has that social foundation it will persist. like you said there, to destroy hamas israel would have to kill every single person that might join hamas. i cant imagine what israel will do when america's global influence abates, unless europe takes its place once again.
hamas isnt really israel's only enemy either, its obviously backed by iran whose military isnt quite sophisticated enough but nonetheless can hinder israel much more effectively than hamas with its long range missiles.\
on the other hand, as long as israel has the support if the US or europe, the anti-israel forces will never be able to destroy it. and i am not very optimistic about them being able to find a way to settle for an agreement either.

Extraordinary sight under extraordinary circumstances.

Does anyone know the homicide (non-Arab involved) rate in Israel? I can't imagine seeing this happening anywhere else without the domestic violence murder rate rising.

When civilians are armed like that while carrying on with their daily lives, it just begs the question of what is wrong with their society.

Actually I believe they're soldiers. Don't know if they're "active."

Finn McCool said:

It seems that this is just another of the so many missed opportunities for peace in this war. Perhaps if Israel and the West had been more willing to tolerate Hamas and build faith, there could have been an opening for the peace process.

Click to expand...

Who do you think they're dealing with? This is Hamas, not your local bridge club. If the goals of Hamas were not clear from their charter, then they should have become clear from the hundreds of suicide bombers that Hamas sent into Israeli cities between 2001 and 2004 - up until the Israelis began to erect a security barrier around the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas has never been shy about what their goals are: to wipe Israel off the map. There is no such thing as a "peace process" with such a partner.

The best that Israel can hope for is to achieve a degree of deterrence with Hamas, similar to what came out of the 2006 Lebanon War. Since 2006 Hezbollah has rearmed - but they have not been engaging in the kind of cross-border raids and rocket attacks that had been typical up until then.

This remains the prime, although not the only Israeli objective of the ongoing operation. In the words of one senior Israeli defense source:
"The message of this operation is that Israel is willing to respond disproportionately for every rocket coming out of Gaza. We want Hamas to consider this before they will fire again."


I also find it interesting under the above article from Janes', that regardless of whatever rhetoric you might see in the press, it is also being reported that Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian Authority assisted the Israelis in gathering the intelligence used to select the targets for the opening wave of air attacks. Whatever they might say against Israel in public, the majority of the Arab world recognizes the Hamas is a destabilizing force, whom everyone - including the Palestinian people - would be better off without.

Wait, so you're saying that basically the point of the invasion is to terrorize the 1.5-million people of Gaza into turning against Hamas?

The irony here is that even as Israel is beating the crap out of Gaza and slaughters its inhabitants (I intentionally use the word slaughter here because whiel suicide bombers are able to cause civilian casualties, there is simply no viable way for Palestinians to counter-attack against the Israeli military, making it a turkey shoot), in the big picture, it is gaining nothing. Every year Israel's security remains poor.

1967, fought and won a decisive war, again in 1973. Since then though, things have been getting harder and harder, and in 2006 it arguably lost against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Now it's fighting a pitiful opponent (militarily) and it is still quite likely that the IDF will fail, leaving Gaza in ruins with Hamas strengthened (or replaced by something worse) for having "stood up" to Israel.As the US economy continues to weaken, the government will likely reconsider its level of support for Israel, at least as far as financial and military transfers go - this fighting largely paid for by US tax dollars is simply unsustainable.