Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member

Israeli sources: US has given Israel the green light to confront any threat on any front and in any geography — Al Arabiya
What could that mean ? Preemptive strike on Hezbollah or targeting Iranian nuclear sites or more pummeling of defenceless Syria? Empty threat ? I don't think expanding conflict is a good idea for the zionist entity but with the unlimited support they have from the U.S. they might feel confident enough to do it.


I always hated this talentless clown btw and now I hate him even more. He basically made his career out of copying Hong Kong actions films and French new wave.
 
Last edited:

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Narratives blaming "racist west" for not recognising Palestine are counter-factual.

Western countries don't recognize Palestine as a state because there is no formal legal instrument to do so apart from unilateral proclamation that some countries made - former Soviet bloc, Sweden and Iceland. Proclamations are not legal in nature but political. They are not legally binding unless as consequence of the proclamation laws are passed that make it binding. And that rarely happens because most proclamations are just rhetoric to influence, deceive or deflect other political rhetoric. Poland recognizes Palestine and it has exactly zero consequence on what Poland does because there are no legal relationships between Poland and Palestine because Palestine doesn't exist as a de facto state.

On the other hand Taiwan existed as a de facto state called "Republic of China" so Taiwan has de facto legal relationship with Poland even though Poland doesn't recognise either Taiwan or Republic of China and officially recognizes "one China". That's because there are multiple entities and legal relationships that connect the two despite formal recognition.

Counter-intuitive? Yes. Self-contradictory? No. Politics is a non-euclidean space.

That's why Israel is making such effort in disrupting Palestinian territories and expanding settlements, supporting rival factions etc. It is to prevent a de facto recognition. Israel understands the legal game of recognition. Palestine doesn't.

And since there is no state of Palestine de facto there can't be one de jure as far as European legal systems are concerned and if anyone tried to recognise it formally it would likely be overturned in courts because the legal instruments that e.g. US or Israel would bring against any country recognising Palestine would be significant.

And if you don't believe me ask yourself this: how many separatist movements are there in Europe and how many are recognised by other countries?

State of Palestine is just some people claiming to be a legitimate state entity. But if they tried to put it into effect their own "people" would not agree with them. The reason why there has been no election in Palestine since 2006 is that both Hamas and Fatah disagree on fundamental systemic issues that prevent them from ever cooperating. Otherwise they'd just unilaterally declare independence for Palestine and force events.

PLO couldn't achieve independence because it wasn't supported by all of Palestine. Its actions - including terrorim - were aimed at building legitimacy in the same way that Hamas is building its own. If Palestine was united as a de facto nation history would look different. Jews united themselves as a de facto nation - despite their differences, much greater than those among the Palestinians - and that's why we have a state of Israel but not of Palestine. It's that simple and Palestinians are still refusing to fully come to terms with it.

Also trying to make this conflict into something that is fundamentally different from the many similar conflicts around the world is just blatant manipulation. It's very easy to bring Palestine and Taiwan on the same level because they are largely similar problems as far as politics and feeling is involved. Which is why we shouldn't be focusing on feelings and politics but fact and accepted rules.

Israel is a problem because it violates the rules it imposes on others and not because it does anything to "Palestine" because no matter how much anti-Israeli or anti-Jewish crowd screams there still isn't a "Palestine" to speak of. And we don't know if it there would be a Palestine if Israel suddenly started to obey the rules. We genuinely don't.

The reason why Arab states fought "for Palestine" was because it was meant to become a part of territory of either Nasser's "United Arab Republic" or Jordan's Hashemite Kingdom. Many fight against Israel hoping for a Caliphate. If there wasn't a common enemy Gaza might prefer to split from West Bank to benefit more from offshore gas fields that would fall within its EEZ etc. West Bank would limit access to water which is an extremely scarce and strategic resource.

Palestinian statehood is as much an external problem as it is an internal one, but admitting the latter doesn't help making money on "cause" and "Palestine" is still much more of a business venture than a genuine nation. Nation-building is difficult. Look at Afghanistan if you don't believe me.

Here are the de facto two sides of the conflict:
  • State of Israel
  • Civilian population of Palestinian territories
This asymmetry is precisely why the conflict exists. Otherwise it would have ended in 1948.

EOT.

--------

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Israel’s president Isaac Herzog accused Palestinians in Gaza of being collectively responsible for the attack. “It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians [being] not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true,” he said on Friday. “They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’état.”

The scary part it that exactly the same thing can be said of Israeli civilians who could have fought against their government when it violates human rights and commits war crimes. Therefore whit his statement the president of Israel justified all acts of aggression committed against Israeli civilians.

He also effectively expressed explicit or implicit support for collective punishment which is a war crime.

--------

Map of the area in Gaza strip that IDF wants evacuated:

Gaza evacuation.jpg

Since this is urban combat here's the best illustration of the environment where the fighting will take place. This is the area that IDF wants evacuated (1200x 2000 pixels):
Gaza theater 2.jpg

This is the closest analogue:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

ISIL had 4k fighters against 40k of SDF.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Mosul had 1,8m in the city and the forces were approximately 100k vs 10k.

In both cases proportion of attacking to defending force is 10:1 and it is the accepted textbook "safe" threshold for successful operation in urban areas.

It's likely that IDF will deploy similar contingent to that in Mosul. Hamas forces are unknown because once IDF gets drawn into the city they may prefer to stage raids from southern parts of Gaza strip where the population is being moved.

Current situation - comparison Rybar and ISW:
2023.10.13_1400.jpg

Southern Israel Battle Map Draft October 12 2023.jpg

At this point we can assume that the contested zone around Gaza has largely been neutralised and fighting is mostly at the boundary and in isolated spots that IDF hasn't entered yet. E.g. Sderot has been evacuated by IDF and will likely serve as a staging ground so it's unlikely that the entire area is "contested". More likely there's IDF presence but sporadic infiltrations or attacks take place.

So what's left is patience. The assault should allegedly begin in just several hours.
 
Last edited:

Stierlitz

Junior Member
Registered Member
⚡️ - PM Netanyahu about the Gaza offensive: “This is just the beginning. Our enemies have only just begun to pay the price, but I won't go into detail.”

❌❗️ — Israeli Prime-Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: We will not forget, We will not pardon what happened to us, and we will not allow the world to forget this disaster by any means necessary


❌❗️ — Israeli Prime-Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: We are still at the beginning of our revenge, and we will continue the war until its very end, until we finally eliminate Hamas, once and for all, and win

❌❗️ — Saudi Foreign Ministry: We re-affirm our condemnation of the continued targeting of defenseless civilians in Gaza by Israel Defense Forces
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
It will be a disaster for Israel, not only because they've lost their reputation as a competent military. But also because the progress they made in gaining acceptance by the international community will be lost in a few moments as they massacre the Palestinians. They will be left with only the US and Europe supporting them and even they will have to hold their nose. Gaza might be burn, but Israel will burn with them. We might even see some countries revoke their recognition of Israel and the accusation of genocide to become more mainstream if they massacre more than 100,000 people, a large proportion of whom will be children, in Gaza.
Especially because so far, it doesn't seem like they can that accurately find Hamas at all. Attacking civilian (or ex Hamas aboveground buildings, if you believe them) does not help but may rather only really cause a bigger Hamas. At this point, nearly all Hamas soldiers would have moved into underground fortifications.
The Western world isn't gonna care
The western world also doesn't provide enough market to feed Israel reliably by themselves.

Because the middle east is far away, China has a high threshold but it's not as if they don't have standards at all. In the past, they also cut off Iraq completely during the Iraq-Iran war.

Ironically, the more Israel tries to "involve" China without showing sincerity about anti terrorism, the more likely it is for them to get on the radar.
 

B777LR

Junior Member
Registered Member
Apparently the notification by Israel to evacuate to the south was a trick as people doing so, through the road indicated by Israeli forces, were bombed

That's curious, the national broadcaster in Denmark made a radio interview with her today, where she sobbed through the interview in arabic and needed a translator. Now she speaks fluent english?
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Regardless of who's side you're on, the fact is Hamas as an entity is so intertwined both politically and physically with the general Palestinian population that it is pretty much impossible to target them specifically.

Sure there may be a couple of known hideouts or buildings you can bomb but that's about it.
There are no caves to send thermobaric weapons into, no bases to attack, no armored columns to destroy nor SAM complex to flatten etc.

If you have really good HUMINT you can perhaps take out a few hamas leaders but that doesn't change anything.
 

Biscuits

Major
Registered Member
Regardless of who's side you're on, the fact is Hamas as an entity is so intertwined both politically and physically with the general Palestinian population that it is pretty much impossible to target them specifically.

Sure there may be a couple of known hideouts or buildings you can bomb but that's about it.
There are no caves to send thermobaric weapons into, no bases to attack, no armored columns to destroy nor SAM complex to flatten etc.

If you have really good HUMINT you can perhaps take out a few hamas leaders but that doesn't change anything.
They're only really intertwined in the sense that they can use tunnels and the locals don't mind them zipping around underground.

I wouldn't say they're actually that close to the overall population. Unlike the Israeli government, they're not able to practice conscription. If they could, they would have a much better position, being able to raise new units in the west bank.

Hamas is only 1 rival provisional government among a couple others, all of which are supposed to be in a coalition but for obvious reasons are not well coordinated in practice.
 

BlackWindMnt

Captain
Registered Member
Russia drained western stockpiles, how else was Israel in such awkward position? Russia winning its own war is enough to keep EU at bay.

China's effort in uniting Muslim world is crucial. China has a keen interest in trolling US back in Middle East.

It will be up to Islamic world to volunteer and fight. China and Russia are creating the conditions for it to happen.

As we speak Islamic militants across the world is eager to go to Gaza.
This is exactly my view of thing, this will be the first crisis for the Muslim Ummah to conquer.
If they succeed their future in the multipolar world will be a good one, if not the will be even more divided and conquered.
 
Top