Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
kwaigonegin said:
You should honestly do some deep research on the south Vietnamese leadership

I encourage you to do some in depth research on this topic. I recommend reading the book Uphill Battle by Frank Scotton.
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I encourage you to do some research on how the US does regime changes on other countries. I don't know anything about the south Vietnamese leadership and I don't care. I know that when the US wants a new stooge in a country, it either pays off the corrupt people in that government to throw their people under the bus for US interests or it finds a nonsensical excuse to murder those who are incorruptible and install corrupt puppets in order to control the country. You went to Vietnam to control it. It doesn't matter who the south Vietnamese leadership were; the Viet Cong, with the help of the PLA, stopped you. The US failed its objective and it lost the Vietnam War.
 
M

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
Michael90 said:
Yeah , now you guys are also coming out with excuses for China's performance just like the @kwaigonegin has been doing. You are doing the same thing you guys have been criticising him for doing. lol
Thing is China's objective was to prevent Vietnam from invading and occupying Cambodia and removing Polpots regime who was one of China's strongest allies back then. However, China failed to save polpots regime and failed to stop Vietnam from occupying Cambodia and installing a Vietnamese puppet government. Lol China had to pull out as well after severe losses and not being able to make Vietnam pull out from Cambodia or come to Cambodia's aid. So many will.also argue China failed, which is even more critical since China was fighting a medium neighboring country just a step away from its land border while the US was fighting far way from its homeland in a foriegn continent far away from her territory.
As I said before, it depends on what we also define as loss. Lol
Some will argue both the US/France and China all lost in Vietnam. Others will argue they didn't really lost militarily per se but politically, others will say it was a complete loss where rhey couldn't sustain the war etc etc. All depends on the target audience and where the bias lies in I guess.
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For China it's a mixed picture in Vietnam. Some success, some failure. Overall, it's ok for a four week campaign. The casualties aren't even that high for two similarly equipped and similarly trained forces fighting each other. China chose to avoid implementing an American style occupation of Vietnam. It's not a complete Chinese victory, but calling it a Vietnamese victory is a bit of a stretch

The French and American wars against Vietnam are complete failures. The failure is compounded by throwing more and more resources into the war when they already couldn't win. Both cases are obvious Vietnamese victories
 
M

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
FairAndUnbiased said:
Russia killed only 2 people in Crimea.

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I'm obviously not talking about the recent illegal annexation of Crimea. I'm talking about the old invasion and occupation of Crimea and the genocidal policies and deportation of the Soviet Union against the Crimean tatars in the 1940s and the ones even before that during Russias invasion and occupation of crimea

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As I said back then it was easier to genocide and ethnically cleansed a territory and make it yours and nobody really cared, everyone minded their business and it was a world of "might makes right". As far as you had the power, you could conquer and occupy a territory and make it yours without much repercussions. So Israel could have easily done that since they have the power to do so without much worries or repercussions if we were living back in the days but today's world is much different. So there are many more considerations.
 
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TK3600

TK3600

Major
Registered Member
Michael90 said:
Yeah , now you guys are also coming out with excuses for China's performance just like the @kwaigonegin has been doing. You are doing the same thing you guys have been criticising him for doing. lol
Thing is China's objective was to prevent Vietnam from invading and occupying Cambodia and removing Polpots regime who was one of China's strongest allies back then. However, China failed to save polpots regime and failed to stop Vietnam from occupying Cambodia and installing a Vietnamese puppet government. Lol China had to pull out as well after severe losses and not being able to make Vietnam pull out from Cambodia or come to Cambodia's aid. So many will also argue China lossed, some will say it was even more critical for China was fighting a medium neighboring country just a step away from its land border while the US was fighting far way from its homeland in a foriegn continent far away from her territory.
As I said before, it depends on what we also define as loss. Lol
Some will argue both the US/France and China all lost in Vietnam. Others will argue they didn't really lost militarily per se but politically, others will say it was a complete loss where rhey couldn't sustain the war etc etc. All depends on the target audience and where the bias lies in I guess.
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I will be fair here. If Chinese intention was to occupy Vietnam, then China lost. There can be debate if that is true. But in case of US, wanting to hold the South as the goal is uncontroversial, and that failed beyond questioning.

End of the day China came out on top, got stronger. US came out weaker after Vietnam. I think we can all agree on this at least.

I think Israeli invasion of Gaza will be like US vs Vietnam. It will come out in a weaker position than before.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Michael90 said:
I'm obviously not talking about the recent illegal annexation of Crimea. I'm talking about the old invasion and occupation of Crimea and the genocidal policies and deportation of the Soviet Union against the Crimean tatars in the 1940s and the ones even before that during Russias invasion and occupation of crimea

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As I said back then it was easier to genocide and ethnically cleansed a territory and make it yours and nobody really cared, everyone minded their business and it was a world of "might makes right". As far as you had the power you could conquer and occupy a territory and make it yours without much repercussions. So Israel could have easily done that since they have the power to do so without much worries or repercussions if we were living back in the days but todays world is much different. So there are many more considerations.
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The Tatars had a way higher rate of people fighting for the Nazis in WW2 than other ethnicities in the Soviet Union. That is the reason for their persecution.
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That is why they got deported. Claims about "their property being stolen" by Soviet authorities are pretty much bunk, since as a Communist nation people had a right to living quarters but saying they "owned" them is a bit of a stretch. Land and housing was communal. Even livestock.

The claim that 30-40% of the Tatars died after being displaced is bullshit. But yes many died. Thousands in transport. More afterwards.

The Tatar population also grew at a similar rate to that of people of Russian descent even with the displacement.
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It is still to be considered a crime but the circumstances are totally different.
 
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I

iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
sheogorath said:
US pilots got a racist patch to commemorate their "total victory" over the Houthis. They can't really help themselves, can they?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1852113910716825951
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10 years later when when they are in a tent doing meth: "We were just following orders. We didn't know we were committing genocide". Pauses to take a hit.



Meanwhile, the US Israelis blow up a mosque in Lebanon.
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Levelling entire communities in Lebanon. Note that these communities were not destroyed in fights. The IDF went in there, planted explosives, then blew them up.
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tankphobia

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Can moderators move this whole conversation to another thread? It's got nothing to do with that situation in the ME.

There is nothing to compare this war to. At the end of the day Israel is still able to conduct large scale operations due to the support provided by the US. They can't 'lose' since current level of attrition is hilariously low for the amount of troops committed. You'll probably see more WIA and KIA in a week in Ukraine than Israel has suffered the whole war.

Politically, who knows. The US is basically choosing between a super Israel supporter (trump) vs moderate Israel supporter. Either way they will be well supplied in arms as long as they don't go crazy and off the Iranian leader or something.
 
I

Index

Senior Member
Registered Member
tankphobia said:
Can moderators move this whole conversation to another thread? It's got nothing to do with that situation in the ME.
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tankphobia said:
There is nothing to compare this war to. At the end of the day Israel is still able to conduct large scale operations
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Large scale operations would be capture of land in many 100s of kms, like what Russia is doing now and Ukraine was seen doing during the first months.
tankphobia said:
due to the support provided by the US. They can't 'lose' since current level of attrition is hilariously low for the amount of troops committed. You'll probably see more WIA and KIA in a week in Ukraine than Israel has suffered the whole war.
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Israel is very much suffering from the curse of Zelensky, I.e. that their casualty reports are wildly off. I would not even bother to trust their sources.
tankphobia said:
Politically, who knows. The US is basically choosing between a super Israel supporter (trump) vs moderate Israel supporter. Either way they will be well supplied in arms as long as they don't go crazy and off the Iranian leader or something.
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Judging from the lack of activity on fronts, attrition is starting to be a problem. For both sides. We'll probably know the full extant of damage later on, when the fog of war clears.

I do fully agree on that all the Vietnam war discussions should be moved to Vietnam War thread.
 
tankphobia

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Index said:
Large scale operations would be capture of land in many 100s of kms, like what Russia is doing now and Ukraine was seen doing during the first months.
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Operations within Gaza takes 10s thousands of personnel. While Lebanon remains at cross border raid levels. Israel is a tiny country, pretty much all of its non-strategic assets are being utilised one way or another. It is enough to call it large scale.

Index said:
Israel is very much suffering from the curse of Zelensky, I.e. that their casualty reports are wildly off. I would not even bother to trust their sources.
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Ground forces are causing a tiny fraction of total casualties. You can complain about individual soldiers doing war crimes all day long, a single apartment building being brought down will cause a multitude more death and destruction. For as long as Israel is able to conduct air operations unimpeded, there is no 'winning'.

Tens of thousands of civilians have already perished. Trading that even for a few thousand Israeli casualties seems like pointless celebration.

Infact I ask many in this thread, what does the end goal look like for this pointless conflict? The end of Israel is not a realistic outcome, those wishing to prolong the conflict rather than hoping for a ceasefire is basically doing what people complain about in the other conflict threads, bleeding Gaza dry for clout.
 
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