Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

kwaigonegin said:

False equivalence but since this entire forum has become extremely anti-US in the last few years, there is no point for me to discuss further. I'm only responding to you because I've 'known' you for a very long time.
Anything post, discussion or notion that is even partially not 100% anti-US in nature is quickly mocked and ridiculed.
American or 'western' inferiority or lost is vehemently celebrated.

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And this was not true maybe 10-15 years ago. Why has it changed? It's because America has entered its terminal decline against China and with that, the ugliness of a waning empire becomes more and more pronounced. Trump showed phase 1 when it became apparent that a US that cannot compete with China will try to create the most uneven competition field to try to win. It no longer had the pride of a superpower, one that believed that its position is earned by its might and its honor was to prove to the world that it can defeat all challenges alone. Now the US wants everyone's help against China; it's a bully who can't win but wants to remain the king of the playground anyway so it's calling in 30 underlings to fight. And if that's not ugly enough, phase 2 sees American willingness to assist in a genocide now. No matter what the country does or stands for, if it will be a US ally against China, the US will accept and support it. No wonder the attitude towards the US has changed to become very negative.

kwaigonegin said:

I've always find this to be quite ironic considering I know for a fact that many members here reside in the US, Europe yet it as if they really hate their country of domicile.

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Most people came here long before the US became what it is today. And almost nobody hated the West when they first moved there. They came with great optimism and hope. And after living here for years and decades getting to know what it's all about deep down, now they hate it. It's their fault, not the fault of Western society, right?

kwaigonegin said:

As to your Afghanistan example again erroneous dynamics. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan with the sole purpose of occupying it. The US NEVER wanted to invade nor occupy Vietnam.
One of the primary reasons why the US pulled out was also the final realization that the S. Vietnamese leaders were totally useless and corrupted. Kennedy actually wanted to withdraw but got assassinated.
The US did NOT lose militarily. For you and others here to keep peddling that narrative is intellectually dishonest.
But hey, since I'm just one against many here who believe in the narrative that the US is just absolutely evil, while China, or in this specific case NVA, Viet Cong, HCM etc. are all pure and good and totally 'kicked US asses' with total military victories... there is no point for me to push my correction. It will fall on deaf eyes and only prolong unnecessary dissention.

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You left because the South Vietnamese were corrupt and useless?? LOLOL You ran away... and they're useless? Corrupt is what you need someone to be in order to sell their country out to the US. No one who is not corrupt would allow you to turn their country into an American vassal and cannon fodder next to China. If you found such a leadership without corruption, you assassinate them and put into place a leadership that is corrupt and rotten to the bones willing to sell their country out for America's benefit everyday. Their corruption is what gave you the chance and tempted you to go. But the Viet Cong army, and China's, would not allow you to capitalize on that chance and that's why you left.

tokenanalyst said:

"Victory" is not define by humans losses or even material losses but by goals reached, In the case of this Netanyahu Driven War, any claim of victory is laughable, despite of causing an humanitarian disaster in Gaza, Hamas is still launching rockets to Israel and lets not even talk about Hezbollah, no matter how much of the "leadership" Bibi kills, they only thing Bibi will get is no one to negotiate but I don't think that is what he and his fascist cult wants, these organizations are like hydras. The real victims are the Palestinians, The Lebanese and even the Israeli civilians who country economy and lifestyle is going to the down the drain and will probably never recover.

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The civilian leadership wasn't particularly trying to stay safe, at least some of them like Haniyeh and Hezbollah guy were in negotiation with Israel, hence attacks on them represents perfidy.

They were probably acting on the assumption that they're disposable because they serve the role of morale booster whether they live or die. Like when Zelensky goes to the front.

Military leaders are the ones that would hurt if taken out. They pretty much only got Sinwar (a commander for ~30k, essentially major general or brigadier general by NATO standards) in a year of war, which isnt much.

_killuminati_ said:

5 Israelis dead after rocket strike in Metula

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New footage of Iran's missile attack, showing the very first barrage of missiles. It looks like the missiles were maneuvering in the terminal phase.

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Hezbollah rocket attack IOF base

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Israel at this rate is suffering between 5-7 deaths a day in this limited ground war in Lebanon. They’ve only have gone in 1-2 kilometers and have been stuck at the border areas and haven’t taken any territory. If they truly make a full scale invasion with all their tanks it’s safe to say the number of losses a day they’ll suffer will spike to 20-30 deaths a day. I said it a few days ago. The ground war has become a total debacle. Worse than 2006 and they haven’t made a real push. The fact they are telling the populace that Hezbollah has only 20% rocket capability and that they’ll withdraw in 2-3 weeks tells me they are looking for an exit out. They don’t have the stomach to continue this any longer. Problem is how they’ll convince the settlers to return to the north once Hezbollah continues rocket,missile and drone attacks?

However there is reports that Israel is preparing for a long regional war up until 2028. This article highlights Israel is planning massive military spending and maintaining this war for another 4 years. This tells me whoever wins the US presidential election is still going to have the Israeli millstone around their necks for the next 4 years.

kwaigonegin said:

If they had stayed it would still be going on today. Again what is your definition of lost? You seemed to confuse what a lost really is. If lost means white flag, signed treaty of surrender than no.
It would be impossible for the US to lose. At worst they deemed the war not worth it anymore, pack up and go home like they did.
As I mentioned to even compare Vietnam to the current Israel/Palestinian is ridiculous as the dynamics are totally different.
Both sides believe they are each fighting for thier own very survival be it real or projected.
Vietnam wad never about survival. It was more about ideology and a proxy war with the Soviets.

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K then Ukraine can never win since they can never force Russia to white flag or surrender. At worst Russians decide it's not worth it and leave.

JJD1803 said:

Israel at this rate is suffering between 5-7 deaths a day in this limited ground war in Lebanon. They’ve only have gone in 1-2 kilometers and have been stuck at the border areas and haven’t taken any territory. If they truly make a full scale invasion with all their tanks it’s safe to say the number of losses a day they’ll suffer will spike to 20-30 deaths a day. I said it a few days ago. The ground war has become a total debacle. Worse than 2006 and they haven’t made a real push. The fact they are telling the populace that Hezbollah has only 20% rocket capability and that they’ll withdraw in 2-3 weeks tells me they are looking for an exit out. They don’t have the stomach to continue this any longer. Problem is how they’ll convince the settlers to return to the north once Hezbollah continues rocket,missile and drone attacks?

However there is reports that Israel is preparing for a long regional war up until 2028. This article highlights Israel is planning massive military spending and maintaining this war for another 4 years. This tells me whoever wins the US presidential election is still going to have the Israeli millstone around their necks for the next 4 years.

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Israel advanced 1 km in a month in Lebanon.

Russia advanced 100 km in a week in Ukraine.

People said the Ukraine war made Ukraine into a great power, win or lose.

People said that Israel is one of the strongest military powers in the world.

Guess Lebanon is a global superpower now.

plawolf said:

I guess here is a perfect case study in why and how America managed to get so little mileage out of its military dominance since its people refuse to face up to reality as that will damage their pride too much. So they end up never learning the core lesson Vietnam should have encoded in the very DNA of its military leaders and people.

Vietnam is THE perfect case study in how you can win every battle but still loose the war.

Wars are waged for a reason, that purpose, that central objective you go to war to achieve is how the outcome is determined by. Not how many battles you win or what K/D ratio you achieve. Granted, normally the two go hand-in-hand, but not always. Even game designers grasp that logic, and you can loose the match even if you have the highest K/D ratio in the game if you don’t play the objectives and simply farm for kills and hide away to avoid deaths.

Vietnam wasn’t even close to being the first example. If you want a more palatable example, look back in your own history and the American war of Independence.What was the K/D ratio and W/L ratio of major battles? Did the American colonists really break the back of the mighty British Army, or did you just managed to make the fight more costly than it was worth for them to continue?

Refusing to accept the reality that winning battles alone don’t win wars is why America got so bogged down in its ME misadventures.

Military might is only a means to an end, not the end in itself. Just look at Gaza. The Israelis have gone further than basically anyone else in modern history and the Palestinians are still standing and saying they can go all day. The only ‘military’ solution to that ‘problem’ is to go full Hitler/Genghis Khan and literally leave no one left alive to stand up to you.

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British never lost in America. Where is invasion of London? British left when they are tired of winning!

TK3600 said:

British never lost in America. Where is invasion of London? British left when they are tired of winning!

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LMAO this got me rolling.

tokenanalyst said:

I don't think this Forum is very Anti-US or even Anti-West, I do think that a lot people all over the world have learned to identify the smell of the bullshit that Western Mainstream Media and think tank stooges propagate and call it out.

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A lot of us are in the West and are not interested in seeing it fail. The confrontational decisions of the leaders of the West are just baffling. And part of the reason they do such dumbass decisions is because of delusional thinkings of their own superiority.

That is how you get the whole West outmatched by tiny North Korea in terms of artillery supplies and things like that.

plawolf said:

I guess here is a perfect case study in why and how America managed to get so little mileage out of its military dominance since its people refuse to face up to reality as that will damage their pride too much. So they end up never learning the core lesson Vietnam should have encoded in the very DNA of its military leaders and people.

Vietnam is THE perfect case study in how you can win every battle but still loose the war.

Wars are waged for a reason, that purpose, that central objective you go to war to achieve is how the outcome is determined by. Not how many battles you win or what K/D ratio you achieve. Granted, normally the two go hand-in-hand, but not always. Even game designers grasp that logic, and you can loose the match even if you have the highest K/D ratio in the game if you don’t play the objectives and simply farm for kills and hide away to avoid deaths.

Vietnam wasn’t even close to being the first example. If you want a more palatable example, look back in your own history and the American war of Independence.What was the K/D ratio and W/L ratio of major battles? Did the American colonists really break the back of the mighty British Army, or did you just managed to make the fight more costly than it was worth for them to continue?

Refusing to accept the reality that winning battles alone don’t win wars is why America got so bogged down in its ME misadventures.

Military might is only a means to an end, not the end in itself. Just look at Gaza. The Israelis have gone further than basically anyone else in modern history and the Palestinians are still standing and saying they can go all day. The only ‘military’ solution to that ‘problem’ is to go full Hitler/Genghis Khan and literally leave no one left alive to stand up to you.

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I get your point. Ut using that logic, can we also say China lost the war against Vietnam in 1979?
Since China's objective was to prevent Vietnam from fully occupying Cambodia(one of China's closest ally in the region back then) and pulling their forces from the country and teach Vietnam a lesson. Yet none of that happened and China also had to pull out with severe losses.
I think it also depends on what we define as a loss. Not sure those are losses per se

TK3600 said:

British never lost in America. Where is invasion of London? British left when they are tired of winning!

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No, they decided it wasn't worth it because they saw that all the Americans were corrupt and useless. Gotta stick with the narrative LOL