Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Erdogan flexing muscle.
View attachment 136762
Turkey is a snake and I hope they're planning a slick move this time. If Israel, Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis go out out on each other leaving Israel significantly injured and all others near dead or dead, Turkey has the oppertunity to go in fresh and hit Israel with everything they've got just when Israel thinks it has won and can lick its wounds. But Turkey won't move if there are no significant wounds on Israel and it won't move if most of its Western weaponry have shut off buttons on them. While everyone else is taking punches to the face, Turkey would do best to use the time to quietly figure out how to jam the kill switches on its NATO gear. If Turkey snakes out a last minute destruction of Israel, it will be the hero of the Muslim world and it will have earned incredible respect in most of the non-Western world. If it pulls it off, I'll actually start calling it Turkiye LOL
 
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iBBz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Another Reaper shot down by Yemen
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Of course any state to state or country to country warfare is different from fighting an unconventional warfare. In fact for most countries they will rather fight a conventional warfare with another country, since its more of a direct conflict with clear adversaries and even rules of war. Meanwhile fighting an unconventional or guerrila war/militias who often blend in with civilian population and don't fight openly against their adversary is even more complex/time consuming and draining and you get to often even kill far more civilians and those not part of the fighting than you do with the real fighters. Look at the US against the Saddam Hussein military which was a conventional warfare and open, compared to what they faced fighting the many shia militias and terror groups that later popped up in Iraq after the Iraqi army was defeated. The US got bogged down so much since this enemies were fighting an unconventional war and hiding among the populace using hit and run tactics, suicide bombings, IEDs, and disappearing into the population after attacks. So makes such a war much more difficult and complex especially if you are trying to observe some sort of rules of war which foesnt work with such an opponent. The best way to deal with such an unconventional enemy is to do what Russia did in Syria and Chechenya I.e wipe out any area or place this militants/enemies might be hiding irregardless of civilians casualties. "Better to kill a hundred innocent people than let one truly guilty person go free," as the saying goes.
This type.of war is more.messy than a conventional one.

So I think Israel will actually prefer a country to country one like the ones they have fought with Arab countries in the past.
This is a nice tactic to justify blowing up hospitals, places of worship, residential buildings, razing streets etc. Pretend everyone here is stupid and gullible. Use fake irrelevant examples instead of referencing the actual the situation at hand on display for everyone to see. Frame it as an intellectual debate like "hey guys I'm just trying a nice conversation here about blowing up women and children". Brilliant way to dehumanize a group of people. Nice touch with that quote in bold, too!
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
That's also a simplification.

IMO there is a whole list of differences that are all worthy of their own effortpost:
- advancement of munitions (including geometry, guidance, maneuverability)
- ISR/BDA capability
- supporting EW/SEAD/DEAD
- fixed wing aircraft support
- Israeli defenses and sophistication
- US/allied defenses and sophisticaiton

Also the greatest difference - range. Without terminal guidance, the further than range, the greater the CEP.
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
After all that heavy Iranian missile strike, I'm not seeing much, if any follow up action by Hezbollah. Why are Hezbollah not taking the advantage to rain rockets and missiles at the IDF? People said that they have tons of those stuff. Now is a good time to use them to target those staging areas and logistical nodes of the IDF invasion force. While at least one Israeli airbase is out of action, and the IDF being hobbled, this should have been opportunity to hit them hard.

Instead, all we have seen so far are IDF forces raiding abandoned Hezbollah tunnels and capturing a good load of weaponry. Has Hezbollah been truly crippled after what Israel had done to them over the last few weeks? And that those Iranian missile strikes were meant to give them a break? Or worse, is this all yet another theater?
 

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
Former Prime Minister. He is in glee right now
On a serious note. I do believe that the Israelis are gonna come after the Ayatollah this time. And unfortunately, a sizable number of Iranians are gonna aid them in doing it, including certain members in the current Iranian government, intelligence, and military. I do hope that the Ayatollah and his loyalists had been busy cleaning house, for his own sake, and his nation's security.
 

mossen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Has Iran actually succeeded in establishing deterrence with this sort of attack?
Iran's actual deterrence strategy was hitting Israel with its proxies. But those proxies have been getting degraded pretty badly. That was their first miscalculation. They have no plan B. Their biggest mistake was not getting nuclear weapons. Instead, Iran wasted 20-30 years in useless "negotiations" where they conditioned their nuclear programme in exchange for being treated better by the West.

Now that their proxies are degraded, and they don't have nukes, Israel has escalatory dominance. Israel doesn't even have to use nukes, because they have Uncle Sam helping out with conventional arms. Did Iran not think the US would help Israel in every single way? You can't think of Iran vs Israel in isolation. Iran was always going to face the duo of US+Israel. Iran cannot deter that asymmetry without nuclear weapons.

Iranian elites bet everything on better relations with the West and in so doing, they gambled away their best defensive card and now they are paying the price. Will they learn? Don't bet on it.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
After all that heavy Iranian missile strike, why are Hezbollah not taking the advantage to rain rockets and missiles at the IDF? People said that they have tons of those stuff. Now is a good time to use them to target those staging areas and logistical nodes of the IDF invasion force. While at least one Israeli airbase is out of action, and the IDF being hobbled, this should have been opportunity to hit them hard.

Instead, all we have seen so far are IDF forces raiding abandoned Hezbollah tunnels and capturing a good load of weaponry. Has Hezbollah been truly crippled after what Israel had done to them over the last few weeks? And that those Iranian missile strikes were meant to give them a break? Or worse, is this all yet another theater?

Because Iran doesn’t want a full blown war.

Israel forced this Iranian attack as it has repeatedly demonstrated that it just doesn’t respect diplomacy and will keep pushing you unless you push back.

This is Iran pushing back with more force and consequence. But ultimately Iran doesn’t want a full blown war with Israel, which is why this attack was very focused on legitimate military targets rather than maximum damage as Israeli attacks have been in Gaza and Lebanon.

I think this is the last such warning and off ramp before war becomes inevitable. The first attack was a warning shot, this was the equivalent of deliberately giving a flesh wound. There are no further steps before you are fighting for real.

Iran wants Israel to take the off ramp, so it’s not doing follow up attacks. But if Israel strikes back hard, then there is no remaining opportunities left to avert a full blown war.

Fortunately, Israeli long range strike capabilities are surprisingly pathetic. So it needs active and massive US logistical support to allow it to reach Iranian soil with anything remotely approaching meaningful force, so America does have something approaching a veto. The big question is whether Biden decides to use it or not.

In a way, Biden getting soft coup’d out of running for re-election has strengthened his hand massively in his ability to stand up to the Israeli lobby, since he literally has nothing left to loose that they can leverage him with. So for a rare change, a sitting US president can make a let ME strategy decision based primarily on what is best for American national interests as opposed to Israel’s.

But then Biden having nothing left to loose also makes him dangerous and unpredictable if he wants some payback at Harris and co for couping him.
 

Nobo

Junior Member
Registered Member
On a serious note. I do believe that the Israelis are gonna come after the Ayatollah this time.
Nothing would make my heart more warm. But unfortunately, this will never happen. Because that old bag hag khamenei is biggest western asset with nuke haram bs. Take him out tonight ,ahmadinejad 2.0 takes charge.

Tomorrow morning 10 AM sharp, "Iran tests nuke" would be the headline you would be watching.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's only half the equation. How do you know how many missiles were launched? Are you inserting your own figures of launched projectiles to manipulate the intercept rate to your liking?
We will know soon enough. Israel claimed around 180 ballistic missiles were fired. Previous time Nevatim airbase received about 7 hits from BMs.

Heat plume is behind it, not on it. Heat guidance requires an IR-seeker. TPY-2 does not have an IR-seeker. Tracking a target is not the same as locking a target and guiding an interceptor to it.
Remember, the context here is a satellite in orbit detecting a launch and cuing the AN/TPY-2 and other radars to start searching in that area. Medium range ballistic missiles fly in a high arc, and can be detected and tracked by powerful radars from enormous distances (2000km+). AEGIS for example will track he target and guide SM-3 to an intercept vector in outer space. The last stage will switch to terminal IIR homing and collide with the warhead. So you see, infra red homing works well after the ballistic missile has completed its burn. The warhead is still hits from the ascent and in space glows like a Christmas tree to an IIR camera.

@plawolf Pathetic long range strike capability!? Israel executed several binning runs on Yemen with its Air Force, dropping JDAMs on targets that are further away from Israel than Tehran. It used its own tanker aircraft fleet to accomplish this.

Furthermore, Israel has cruise and ballistic missiles that it would use to complement a bombing mission on Iran that would likely be used to soften up their air defenses.
 
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