Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
OP was right. Sunnis are losers.

Hamas got housed and supported by Assad in Damascus but when it became fashionable to say Assad Must Go, they joined the bandwagon.



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Of course Hamas was a big backer of the Syrian revolution and even sent some fighters to support the Rebels. The thing is Hamas was allied with the Assad regime just as a matter of convenience its not like they have any common ideological or religious belief. If anything the Assad Dynasty which is composed of a minority alawite sect shares no common ideological/religious doctrine with Hamas, they are pole apart in this regard(totally different belief/system/ideology). If anything Hamas identifies itself more with the Muslim brotherhood (which most of the syrian revolutionarist come from) and the muslim brotherhood is the ideological parent of Hamas, which was founded over 35 years ago among the Palestinians, the majority of whom are Sunni Muslims. So of course when the revolution began and Hamas saw that the revolution had a big opportunity to topple the Assad Dynasty they joined their brothers to try and overthrow the regime.
It's a rather complicated and delicate situation for Hamas . I will explain why it's rather complex for Hamas.

As you cam see; on one hand Hamas has a big cause to fight for (the lost Palestine), and on the other hand it is a Muslim Sunni group and it identifies with the biggest chunk of the Arab world, which normally supports the Syrian revolution. Since Hamas adopted armed resistance against Israel’s policy on Palestine, it could not totally give in to the Arab group that chose not to use power against Israel ever since the war of 1973 and normalisation of ties with Israel.
So Iran is the only major country in the Middle East that still considers using power against Israel(though not directly for obvious reasons, they only do so through proxies which avoids a direct confrontation with Israel and the US). so Hamas can but cooperate with Iran on this in order to get the arm support it needs.
At the same time, Hamas identity and believe system prevents it from succumbing to the criminal dictator, Bashar al Assad, who kills his own people (who are mostly Muslim Sunni) with help form Muslim Shit militias established, trained, armed and funded by Iran.
This has put Hamas in a catch 22 situation since 2011. It ended up in 2012 choosing to oppose the dictator Assad, which forced it out of Syria(the Assad regime kicked them out), while still showing willingness to cooperate with his ally, Iran.
Iran understood Hamas stand and decided to keep supporting it in spite of its clear rejection of Assad crimes and its open political support to the Syrian opposition, which considers Iran as the ultimate enemy.
Anyway, Hamas had no choice than to restore ties with Syria just recently (2 years ago) since the revolution didn't manage to topple the Assad Dynasty . Things have gone back to normal on the surface but both sides know its just a marriage of convenience for now and that can very easily change depending on the situation.
 
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quim

Junior Member
Registered Member
And let's not forget that these Jews and their media are also the ones who push anti-chinese hatred and provocations with China
Yes, they have had a monopoly on Western media and mass culture since WWII.

Before that, even in the USA, Western culture was dominated by the Catholic Church. For example, for a movie to be released in the cinema, Hollywood needed approval from the cultural body of the diocese of Los Angeles. The same for architecture, music and politics in general.

After the war, the Jews achieved unquestionable dominance using the Holocaust as a shield, so they will do everything to maintain their monopoly and avoid new competition. Hence the lobby to ban or control Tiktok. They only tolerate employees who work for them, so as not to return to their previous state.
 

quim

Junior Member
Registered Member
Utterly wrong i'm afraid... you need to go read the Bible and see how it's interpreted by middle American's. They don't want/need Jewish bribery to support Israel.
This support is recent and linked to the rise of sects independent of traditional churches.

Traditional Christianity has always condemned the Jews for not recognizing Christ as the messiah. The New Testament of the Bible expressly condemns the Jews.
 

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
you can't make this shit up. Iran promises to retaliate politicaly & diplomaticly to the assassination of the IRGC commander.

Araghchi: The assassination of Brigadier General Nilforoushan will not pass without a response

Iranian Foreign Minister offers condolences to Major General Salami over the martyrdom of Brigadier General Abbas Nilforoushan, stressing that the heinous crime committed by the usurping Zionist entity will not pass without a response, and that Iran will use all its political, diplomatic and legal capabilities to pursue the criminals.

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What do you want them to do? Let's be more realistic and rational here instead of making fun of Iran. I think they are doing the best they can.
Afterall, considering the imbalance of power between both sides(forget the political rhetorics and fanboys) , it would be foolish for Iran to decide to start a war with Israel and the US
 
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LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
In the regards of Iran being the most infiltrated nation in the MENA. The question we should asked is when did this happen? How could Iran be this bad in their intelligence department?
One can argue that the first signs of infiltration/defection are the assasinations of the Iranian nuclear scientists and even the infamous Stuxnet cyber attack in 2007. While the latter can be chalked to Iran being behind on the technology frontier, the former is unacceptable for any other country.
 

enroger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Their population compare their lives from before to now, and they wholeheartedly say that the Western system is superior.

Extremely disingenuous statement. People saw those films about Iranians women in bikini living western life back in the Shah era and thought that was how all Iranians lived. Fact is it only represented a very small minority of Iranians living in Tehran.

The Shah regime was extremely corrupted and was basically a comprador ruling class that get rich by selling their resources to the west for the cheap which benefitted a extremely small class of Iranians who gets to live like westerners, the majority of Iranians lived in abject poverty. Iran only started industrialization after the revolution.

This is not to say there aren't a lot of Iranians worshiping the west now, just setting the records straight.
 

eduds6

New Member
Registered Member
"simple. They don't have political legitimacy. Their population compare their lives from before to now, and they wholeheartedly say that the Western system is superior.
"

yeah absolutely. especially for those dying in hunger in the achaemenid empire festivities, the caviar, while the feudal lords, royal family and americans were having their spoils
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
How could Iran be this bad in their intelligence department?

It's an elementary question with a very simple answer.

Khomeini was very much like Lenin. He was an ideological figure who radicalised the popular masses protesting against the Pahlavi regime and when the Shah fled under popular pressure he used the chaos to impose his own version of ideological authoritarianism, which went contrary to the more democratic and popular nature of the early revolution. Much like Lenin, Khomeini did not lead the popular revolution - he provided inspiration then surfed on its waves to power singing the praises of the mass movement and then ended the revolution with an authoritarian coup. But very much like Lenin he was charismatic and skillfully enough to disguise that plan in effective rhetoric.

The military did not react because they were largely demoralised during the revolution and didn't want to be seen as taking side of the unpopular Shah when it became obvious that the deposition of monarchy was inevitable. They also participated in violence earlier which made it difficult to react with force against the new "popular" authorities. When Khomeini began to impose more authoritarian rule the military resisted passively, by refusing to fully cooperate and hoping that this new political reality would fail over time.

And then suddenly they had to fight a war.
  • Revolution began in January 1978.
  • Pahlavi fled in January 1979.
  • Khomeini returned from exile in February 1979.
  • Khomeini became supreme leader in December 1979.
  • Saddam invaded in September of 1980.
  • The war ended in August 1988.
There was merely a year between Khomeini claiming title of Supreme Leader and Saddam's invading Iran. Then there was the invasion and the following eight years of warfare which Khomeini was quick to use against the military accusing them of anything short of overt rebellion and to build up his own loyalist formation - the Islamic Revolution Guard.

When the war ended the regime was already too established for the military to challenge it and there was no political faction that could be used to spearhead the revolution. The country was also tired of fighting and the military found itself under constant pressure from the regime. Then for over a decade they had to constantly monitor the outcome of US intervention in Iraq and then the US invaded and Iran became involved directly, although through proxies.

From 1979 until today Iran was not at war for perhaps 3 years out of 35
.

At the same time the elections in Iran were retained as a perfunctory process that gives the masses an illusion of choice. Iranian regime functions very much like the communist governments in East Germany, Poland or Czechoslovakia where there were nominally multiple parties but where none of the results mattered because the "leading role" of the "vanguard party" was beyond democratic influence. Such system creates apathy as well as resentment and I can very well understand the mindset of the Iranian people because their current situation mirrors the situation in Poland in the 1980s.

This means that anyone seeking to recruit collaborators from within state structure has two potential vectors of attack:
  • military personnel - seeking to weaken the Pasdaran
  • secular politicians - seeking to weaken the conservative political faction run by clerics
Note that for these two vectors to become valid the collaborator does not need to want to overthrow the Islamic Republic! They only need to remove its authoritarian elements - the military one and the political one. That means that almost a nyone who isn't emotionally involved with the current regime - which includes disgruntled regime officers - is a potential candidate.

Also due to the un-democratic and un-meritocratic nature of the Iranian regime it is a viable solution for political rivals to use Israeli agents to remove their political opponents to open way for promotion or policy change. And Israel mindful of the value of such access will allow you to catch the assassin so as to protect yourself.

And that is sufficient for Israeli efforts because Israel doesn't seek to destroy Iran. They only need to ensure that the Iranian boogeyman isn't a threat they can't manage. And the collaborators also understand that Israel can't harm Iran so they are not acting against the interest of their country.

After all was Lenin a German agent and a Russian traitor or a cunning political operative and a Russian patriot?

That's the reality that Israeli collaborators in Iran are facing. And that's the reality that is invisible to anyone who believes the propaganda manufactured by the Shia regime.

And one more thing. This is the graph of Iran's population change from 1956 to 2016 dividing between rural and urban population.

Iran pop change.jpg

At the bottom I marked two large urban population growth periods. The growth during the early Islamic Revolution and Iran-Iraq war (blue) indicates rural population moving to the cities. The growth that follows (yellow) is a mix of rural migration and natural urban growth with the latter becoming the norm after 2000s. Currently 75% of Iran's population is culturally "urban" which is in contrast to the 70s when 75% of the population was culturally "rural".

Rural populations are more religious cross-culturally because religion is a binding element that is necessary for social cohesion. Urban populations are more secular cross-culturally because the density is already providing social cohesion that is often seen as excessive or unwanted.When the clerics rose to power they rose on the backs of "their"people. Currently they rule over people who do not identify with them and view the regime as an obstacle.

This sociological process is irreversible as the generations influence subsequent generations. In 2012 half of Iran's population was under the age of 35 which means that they have always known the regime. To such people the Islamic regime embodies all of the social, economic and political problems. Since then 10 million more were born. This process will only continue to weaken and erode the authority of the clerics. The collapse of a regime is inevitable. What form it takes - that remains to be seen. But the reason that Israel is capable of exploiting Iran's weaknesses so well is the consequence of the slow agony of the Iranian state in its current form.

If only we were on a Chinese-themed forum where the process of stagnation, ossification, corruption and hubris leading to political collapse would be readily understood based on similarities to Chinese history. Alas, we're not in one such place. We're somewhere much sillier.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
]

____________________________________

the reason why Israel faces such difficulty at reaching Hamas leaders in Gaza when compared to Hezbolah or Hamas leaders outside Gaza is because there aren't any Iranians in Gaza. Iran is the most infiltrated nation on earth. Mossad has seeped through every corner of Iran. that is why they were able to reach & kill the Iranian president while Iran couldn't reach him or even figure out where he was.

idealy Hezbolah needs to kick all Iranian advisors or comanders out of Lebanon. the only Iranians who should be allowed in Lebanon are those who volunteer to be foot soldiers but nothing higher than that and don't let them anywhere near Hezbolah leadership and comand centers.
At some point you can't blame the government anymore because the historical record is obvious and if they want evidence they can literally take a 2 hour drive into Iraq or Afghanistan, or talk with a refugee.
politically & diplomatically is not the funny part. the real funny part is this:

Can already imagine Khamenei suing Netanyahu. Biggest clown (btw can we add the clown emoji already?)



simple. They don't have political legitimacy. Their population compare their lives from before to now, and they wholeheartedly say that the Western system is superior.

So, as long as the Iranian political class doesn't deliver on governance, and economic matters, they always going to have such infiltration isissues

North Korea has much higher political legitimacy than Iran. It is why they never, ever have infiltration issues. It's not just about economy or governance (Shah was shit too) but a coherent "national story". Everything has to be self consistent and logical. Being poor is OK, being poor without being able to explain why and unable to show accomplishments elsewhere is what loses legitimacy.

I don't even want to compare to North Korea so I'll compare to Iran's fellow Middle Eastern peer, Yemen. What Yemen lacks in hard power they make up for in determination. 5 years of total war vs Saudi Arabia, still using DPR Yemen stockpiles, and they didn't even lose much territory.

Remember, Qing lost with battleships and artillery against Japan, and in the same year, Zulu beat the British with spears.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Such system creates apathy as well as resentment and I can very well understand the mindset of the Iranian people because their current situation mirrors the situation in Poland in the 1980s.
I'd ask you to expand on this because I really want to understand this mindset. It's easy to caricature it and say people with it have an overpowering fetish to pave their countries with McDonald's, but I want to give it a fair hearing from someone who held (still holds?) it. Why did Poles in the 1980s and Iranians today consider their system completely irredeemable to the point of risking their lives to destroy it and hand their country over to a power they must know on some level considers them an enemy and doesn't wish them well?

One thing I've recently thought about is how the US has been extremely successful in presenting its system as the human default. As the expression of pure freedom with no ideology whatsoever: just McDonald's and Levi's. That's, of course, patently absurd - the American system is profoundly and rigidly ideological and ruthlessly punishes heresy. But it's a lot better at disguising that than Iranian theocracy and Soviet socialism.
 
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