Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and other Related Conflicts in the Middle East (read the rules in the first post)

LawLeadsToPeace said:

Noa isn’t a Chinese citizen, so she legally has no protection under China. If Chinatowns in the US are getting burned down but no Chinese citizen is in the US, then China has no legal obligation to care. It is simple as that. Either that official is an utter idiot or that the media and/or Noa’s mother are being deceptive.

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It all comes down to Israelis operating under an ethno-nationalist framework and expect other countries to do so too, which leads them to moronic and paradoxical conclusions like how every Jew is an Israeli. So now they say every ethnic Chinese is a Chinese citizen.
They blind themselves to the fact that assertions like these are tantamount to the Dual Loyalty trope.

CaribouTruth said:

Not linking to the other video but it shows the Merc truck with mattresses and ladders set up next to an injured/dead? body. This truck with 3 recovered male hostages got blown up by IDF airstrikes.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1799959452604346744

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So.. random civilians from three different areas at different times picked up the convoy on camera footage, two bakers fired at picked it up also, in broad daylight. But the guards remained totally unaware of the raid, even as shots were being fired, and lost the hostages. Am I reading this right? Sounds like the plot from a low budget Hollywood thriller.

CaribouTruth said:

It all comes down to Israelis operating under an ethno-nationalist framework and expect other countries to do so too, which leads them to moronic and paradoxical conclusions like how every Jew is an Israeli. So now they say every ethnic Chinese is a Chinese citizen.
They blind themselves to the fact that assertions like these are tantamount to the Dual Loyalty trope.

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The absolute flaw of nationalist ideology (zionism is a perfect example) is an eternal and unshakable tension between the truth, and the tribe. The tribe has to take precedent for nationalism to make sense, so in effect the whole tribe must lie, constantly. That's why on a long enough timeline you'll find every diehard nationalist ends up turning him/herself into either a moronic hypocrite or a honest savage. It's sort of a crisis between idealism and materialism, with the honest savage being inclined toward materialism, and the idealists (per usual) coming across as imbeciles.

Israel is overflowing both with the plain-spoken savages and the delusional idiots, so like every nationalist project they are dooming themselves ultimately.

Exactly

But it is even worse because the issue is not a brutal identitarian Ethno-nationalism, but a brutal Ethno-nationalism founded (1917-) by the British Empire and a group of violent Ukrainian and Polish fanatics on top of the land of others.

And the West sees it as the most normal thing in the world, as is logical. The Japanese Empire, the best disciple of the British Empire, would also see it as something quite normal: a dominant people, a "HerrenVolk", doing massacres of men, women and children. Normal.

W20 said:

British Empire and a group of violent Ukrainian and Polish fanatics on top of the land of others.

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Also Serbian and Hungarian. Theodor Herzl was the founder of zionism, and ironically he was an atheist, which points out how a big chunk of zionisms's ties to judaism is just LARP and cooptation, specially to justify atrocities commited in Mandatory Palestine and the ethnic cleansing post 1947 and their alleged claim to the land.

I'd say there are different types of nationalism and nationalists, some do represent valid historical gripes, context and claims particularly in the third world. Then you have stupid nationalism, like the nazis, where the ideas are so incoherent, contradictory with the claims and the historicty where you end in some form of racial/religious supremacy because you have nothing else to back it up, which causes all sorts of idiotic and irrational choices, leading to the demise of the nationalist project.

Zionism falls into the stupid nationalism type. They have only lasted this long by a number of unique factors, namely the West's need for a bulwark against the USSR in the region during the Cold War and them providing it and later on Iran. The whole religious nutjob aspect of it is far more recent and probably tied to the fall of the USSR as rallying point of interests, so you gotta come up with something else.

Which ends up being something stupid, as stupid nationalism does, leading to increasingly irrational decisions.

The conditions that allowed all of this are changing, though, specially as the US hegemony and influence weakens, plus the inability to control the narratives due to social networks and the loss of trust in traditional news outlets.

CaribouTruth said:

It all comes down to Israelis operating under an ethno-nationalist framework and expect other countries to do so too, which leads them to moronic and paradoxical conclusions like how every Jew is an Israeli. So now they say every ethnic Chinese is a Chinese citizen.
They blind themselves to the fact that assertions like these are tantamount to the Dual Loyalty trope.

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Dude, not just Israel thinks that way. Even Russia does. What do you think Russia gave as one of the excuse for attacking and invading Ukraine? One of their main excuse was that Ukraine was oppressing its ethnic Russian (and Russian speaking) Ukrainian population in Eastern Ukraine. So Russia had to intervene to protect them. Lol So some military powers can use that to justify an invasion. India is giving citizenship to ethnic hindus in her neighbourhood using Hindu identity as well. They also sponsored Tamil tigers rebels in Sri Lanka due to the ethnic tamil population in India. So it does happen globally in some countries not just Israel.

W20 said:

a brutal ethno-nationalism founded (1917-) by the British Empire and a group of violent Ukrainian and Polish fanatics on top of the land of others

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This is wrong. Zionism far predated the Balfour declaration. In fact, Ben-Gurion for a brief moment even tried to recruit the Ottomans (!) and learned Turkish while doing so. The point is that Zionism has always needed an imperial patron. First they tried the Turks, but that didn't work. Then the Brits and now the Americans.

But the core genesis of Zionism was germinated far earlier. Key factors included support from wealthy diaspora Jewish financiers who funded the early Yishuv (pre-state Zionist settlement) even during the 1800s. See this guy:


Note that while Montefiore lived in the British Empire, he was ethnically Sephardic, so not of European origin.

Moreover, while it is true that the core group of Zionist pioneers were Eastern European Jews, today around half of Jews in Israel are of Mizrahi origin, either fully or partly. These are Jews that come from countries like Yemen, Iraq, Morocco and so on. As it happens, they are also more right-wing than the Ashkenazi (European) Jews. Bibi's own Likud party heavily depends on them.

There is an attempt on the Western left to claim that Zionism is just white people cosplaying as local middle-easterners. But this ignores that most Jews in Israel are neither white nor Western. I've also seen claims that Israel is a white supremacist state. But a white Christian Finnish person has basically zero chance of getting Israeli citizenship whereas a brown Mizrahi Jew living in France can get it tomorrow.

mossen said:

There is an attempt on the Western left to claim that Zionism is just white people cosplaying as local middle-easterners. But this ignores that most Jews in Israel are neither white nor Western. I've also seen claims that Israel is a white supremacist state. But a white Christian Finnish person has basically zero chance of getting Israeli citizenship whereas a brown Mizrahi Jew living in France can get it tomorrow.

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I feel there is a tendency in the west especially American analysis to conflate issues with race or use race as the primary lens for analysis. Perhaps its because race and racial identity is the only acceptable mode of analysis as other modes (such as class, ethnicity, cultural/geographic identity etc etc) take a back seat. Not trying to blame "the wokes" or whatever, I feel they have their own valid domestic reasons for such a tilt in their analysis - but the problem emerges when this lens is pointed towards issues where the racial framework is frankly inadequate. Imagine if every issue was analyzed through the Indian lens of caste prejudice, it would be nonsensical.

Its like that joke, how to explain something to an American you begin with "imagine a burger", racial analysis seems to be "the burger" in the western imagination where issues like ethnicity, geography, nationality, language, culture all get crushed under the purview of a race or a racial identity - just as meat gets processed into a patty.

Michael90 said:

Dude, not just Israel thinks that way. Even Russia does. What do you think Russia gave as one of the excuse for attacking and invading Ukraine? One of their main excuse was that Ukraine was oppressing its ethnic Russian (and Russian speaking) Ukrainian population in Eastern Ukraine. So Russia had to intervene to protect them. Lol So some military powers can use that to justify an invasion. India is giving citizenship to ethnic hindus in her neighbourhood using Hindu identity as well. They also sponsored Tamil tigers rebels in Sri Lanka due to the ethnic tamil population in India. So it does happen globally in some countries not just Israel.

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Some people on this website will not like where this reasoning leads us, but it's important to always be reflecting on oneself and to cast away illusions.

I've heard from some hebrew readers that inside Israel there's already some discourse which places 'zionism' in past-tense, implying a growing recognition that the zionist model was and is unsustainable, with all that implies.

mossen said:

Moreover, while it is true that the core group of Zionist pioneers were Eastern European Jews, today around half of Jews in Israel are of Mizrahi origin, either fully or partly. These are Jews that come from countries like Yemen, Iraq, Morocco and so on.

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Mizrahi is a made up classification to try to separate arab jews from the rest and make the "otherization" of non-jewish arabs easier, though. Not unlike the nazis or slavers before them making up all sorts of racial and ethnic classifications to justify all sorts of atrocities.

mossen said:

There is an attempt on the Western left to claim that Zionism is just white people cosplaying as local middle-easterners. But this ignores that most Jews in Israel are neither white nor Western.

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The majority of Israeli leadership are exactly that, as well as the majority of colonists and settlers. That guy from Brookly who stole a Palestinian family's home just to go in front of a camera and say "If I don't steal your home, someone else will steal it," is a perfect representation of that.

Or Daniella Weiss, leader of one of the most notorious settler groups, who openly wants to ethnically cleanse all of Gaza being the daughter of a Polish woman and an American man who joined the Lehi terrorist group.

While zionism might not be fully white supremacist, it is adjacent to it with its jewish supremacism and this is further reflected by the fact that a lot of white nationalist groups are actually pro-Israel and see it as an example and Israel sees the same.


Which isn't that surprising considering how zionists tried to form alliances with the nazis in 30's

mossen said:

But a white Christian Finnish person has basically zero chance of getting Israeli citizenship whereas a brown Mizrahi Jew living in France can get it tomorrow.

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All you need is to convert to judaism and be white or at least not black and you can do it, lets not pretend there is a serious ethnic limit to it all as long as you aren't African or Palestinian.

The even the conversion has its caveats as you have non israeli christians being able to serve in the IDF, do some human safari in Gaza or the West Bank, and eventually land citizenship