Israel attacks Gaza Strip

Yeah, We gotta live together...those where the days when pipes were wood and hippies made out of steel...

...But altough i said something about pasifistic wievs in previous, lets still focus in the warmongering side

the Israeli High command is sitting in its multi million dollar command and control center with a dozen 42in plasma HDTV all hooked up to satellites, drones and target locations coming in from various Humint agents.

There are around 3+ brigades in southern Gaza consisting of more than 400 armoured vehicles. another 2 to 3 brigades are deployed to the north with another 300+ armoured vehicles. F-15,F-16 ,AH-64 and upgaded cobra are flying around just waiting for the OP-ORDER. hundreds more SAYERET special operators and airborne/helo mobile urban troops have already moved to Phase lines and near mission objective locations. ALL of gaza is ringed with 155mm and any location can be hit within seconds.

hammas AND Fahta have several thounsand fighter with AK and RPG-7.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE VEGAS ODDS ON THIS ONE.....CHEERS UTE

What are the Israelis waiting for? I mean, they've been sitting across Gaza for nearly a week. The arillery strikes have hit civilian areas mainly because the Israelis want the Palestinians to rise up against Hamas (I saw that on ABC World News last evening). The Israelis want to get their soldier back and topple Hamas. Neither one can be accomplished with force. Finding one soldier out of the homes of 1.3 million Palestinian homes is simply impossible. Hamas won't be toppled, it will just get stronger after this incident passes. And even if Hamas is toppled, a new more extreme group can probably form.

utelore said:

the Israeli High command is sitting in its multi million dollar command and control center with a dozen 42in plasma HDTV all hooked up to satellites, drones and target locations coming in from various Humint agents.

There are around 3+ brigades in southern Gaza consisting of more than 400 armoured vehicles. another 2 to 3 brigades are deployed to the north with another 300+ armoured vehicles. F-15,F-16 ,AH-64 and upgaded cobra are flying around just waiting for the OP-ORDER. hundreds more SAYERET special operators and airborne/helo mobile urban troops have already moved to Phase lines and near mission objective locations. ALL of gaza is ringed with 155mm and any location can be hit within seconds.

hammas AND Fahta have several thounsand fighter with AK and RPG-7.

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE VEGAS ODDS ON THIS ONE.....CHEERS UTE

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Thats my point in the begining, Israel is leading becouse of the C&C, not by it's superior equipment. In WWII we beat the soviets becouse our leadership and tactics and strategyes were superior where as the soviets had superiour equipment in both quality and quantity...

So the otherside of the coin is that with well organized gurellia warfare, the Israelian "qizmoes" wont seem so superior anylonger and the situation in the whole area would be quite different....even Aks and RPGs can do wonders if you know where, how, and when to shoot...

Gollevainen said:

Thats my point in the begining, Israel is leading becouse of the C&C, not by it's superior equipment. In WWII we beat the soviets becouse our leadership and tactics and strategyes were superior where as the soviets had superiour equipment in both quality and quantity...

So the otherside of the coin is that with well organized gurellia warfare, the Israelian "qizmoes" wont seem so superior anylonger and the situation in the whole area would be quite different....even Aks and RPGs can do wonders if you know where, how, and when to shoot...

Click to expand...

Gaza would be a perfect place for urban combat. Most streets are too narrow for heavily armored veichles to pass through so soldiers would have to risk exposing themselves to snipers. Tanks and other veichles can get bogged down quite easily in the narrow streets. An RPG hitting the top of the tank can easily mission kill it. There are many wonders as to what guerilla warfare can do...

Well it seems to me that IDF is currently trying to cut civilian casualties rate to minimum and joust show strength… If they really wonted to occupied Gaza they could do it in few hours…
As for narrow streets and guerilla warfare you are forgetting one pretty significant thing; IDF is not US army, if they are under attack they don’t have to much problems lowering entire neighborhood… And all of Palestinian territory is within IDF artillery range. Also they don’t have to worry about any kind of air defenses so troops will have CAS planes and helicopters available on weary short notice. Simply put IDF has such fire superiority that they don’t have to worry about few RPG rounds…

Ps.

While this operation is strategically quite dumb you must remember that Israel has conscript army and that all Israelis, male and female serve in it and it is quite important for government to show to them and to there families that they will do every possible thing to get them back alive… This is quite morale buster not only for military but for entire nation…

Isthvan, you should look at what happened in Grozny, Chechnya. The Russians leveled much of the city yet Russian soldiers get killed on a daily basis throughout Chechnya. Leveling an entire neighborhood doesn't defeat guerilla warfare. Never worked in Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. If it was that easy, the US army would probably use that tactic as well.

crazyinsane105 said:

Isthvan, you should look at what happened in Grozny, Chechnya. The Russians leveled much of the city yet Russian soldiers get killed on a daily basis throughout Chechnya. Leveling an entire neighborhood doesn't defeat guerilla warfare. Never worked in Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. If it was that easy, the US army would probably use that tactic as well.

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I see your point but situation in Grozny has more to do whit incompetence of Russian commanders and probably worst tactics used in any urban conflict in history (like driving in columns, having tanks without machine guns ammo, infantry staying in IFVs waiting to be blown by RPG instead of disembarking etc.)
Any army that would make so many mistakes as Russian did in Grozny would lose no matter what equipment they have… so to me Grozny isn’t perfect example of urban warfare tactics…

As for Afghan and Vietnam wars they aren’t perfect examples either, VC was practically military defeated by the time US left and they had quite different warfare environment… Afghanistan wasn’t much different… Also both Afghanistan and Vietnam had one super power to back them; Palestinians have almost no considerable help from outside…

In Gaza you would only se rerun of Faluyah… Same tactics, weapons even more suited for urban warfare and I can’t see how few guerillas would have chance against something like that…

HOLD ON THERE. CEASE FIRE. I can cover a few points here. First off the palestinians would never ever be able to set up a over all command structure from the top down that could fight Israel. A 2000lbs popeye would stop that before it starts

Next operations with tanks in Iraq in built up urban areas are being conducted with great effect. read the book thunder run. I have talked to lots of old buddies and the Abrams and up armored Bradley's do fine. I have talked to a capt in a tank company about four weeks ago. He claims he has been hit "several" times some of which were a down shot from a RPG from three story building and it has little effect (only if your unbuttoned and it goes into turret) which has happened a few times.

The Israel has the Merkava which has the same protection level as the Abrams if not more. also that giant Achzarit (a big 35 ton up armoured T-55 without the turret used as APC) not going to be hurt by RPG not now, not ever. You cant compare russian ops in chechnya because the equipment was really bad and YES could not survive hits from RPG. Israel Tanks have , can and will in this upcoming operation survive hits from RPG. If the palestinians can come up with some really really big IED that may cause a bump in the road BUT the lack of large weapon stores other than Plastic explosive smuggled in is going to make this hard to do.

Very heavy fighting in northern Gaza today with Israeli Tank and mechanized units engaged in battle with Palestinian gunman. 16 gunman KIA with 55 wounded. Israel reports 1 dead and 2 wounded in the fighting from gun fire. Apache gunships are now attacking Palestinian fighters in the streets of several urban areas with rockets and cannon. I would suspect the death toll on the Pal side to go up quite a bit more. also Inf and tank companies are preparing to take two Pal towns which Israel admits will require street to street fighting.
Lt. Col. Yaniv, a battalion commander, said there had been stiff resistance. "The Palestinians have been firing rocket-propelled grenades, automatic weapons and setting off explosive devices," said Yaniv, who only gave his first name under military regulations per AP
AND a small footnote I have read a few reports of "anti Tank Missiles" being used by Palestinians I assume that these are sagger types brought in from Egypt

WELL IT LOOKS LIKE THE HEAVY HITTING HAS STARTED..