ISIS/ISIL conflict in Syria/Iraq (No OpEd, No Politics)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
GreenestGDP, you have been told now on several occasions that SD is not ideological, and is not a place for that type of boas and posts.

Yet you have done so again.

Now you are receiving an official warning.

Any more such posts will lead to a suspension. If it does, and you come back and continue to do it, you will be banned from SD>

Leave that ideology out of it.

Other ideological slanted posts are being deleted...they just give rise to more and more and worse and worse.

This is a thread I opened about the ISIS Crisis.

It is not anti-US, anti-West, anti-Russian, etc., etc....it will be closed for cooling off if this keeps up. If after that, it continues, it will be permanently closed.

So leave the political and ideological shots and rhetoric our of it. We are not interested in what you "heard," or "read," some where. We are interested in the military/defense aspects of this crisis because that is what SD is about. Leave the other aside.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MODERATION.
 
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comes from AirForceTimes:
Troubled train-and-equip U.S. strategy sparks questions
It's been a humbling few weeks for the Pentagon's central strategy of training and equipping foreign forces to fight on the ground so U.S. troops don't have to.

In Syria, a yearlong effort to train and equip a moderate rebel force was abandoned as a failure.

In Iraq, the local army's campaign against the Islamic State remains stalled outside Ramadi despite support from daily U.S. airstrikes and thousands of boots-on-the-ground advisers.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban in September overran and seized a major city for the first time since 2001. A few weeks later, President Obama scrapped his timeline for ending the U.S. military mission there by the end of next year and said the Afghan army will need support from American troops into 2017.

The series of setbacks in short succession is prompting Washington to take an increasingly skeptical look at the train-and-equip model on which the U.S. military is hinging its strategy.

Congress is holding hearings about "security cooperation" policies. The Defense Department's inspector general is ratcheting up its scrutiny of the train-and-equip efforts. And military officials are facing new and pointed questions about when such missions no longer are worth the effort and should be deemed hopeless.

"I'm looking for some certain rules of the road, kind of like we have on the military intervention side with the Powell doctrine, you know, 'These eight preconditions must exist before you commit U.S. forces,' " Rep. Beto O'Rourke, D-Texas, said in an Oct. 21 House Armed Services Committee hearing on security cooperation issues.

Experts say clear-cut rules are hard to define for security cooperation missions. Obviously, U.S. train-and-equip efforts are more effective when the countries involved are not embroiled in a war, when they have stable central governments, strong economies, functioning ministries of defense and can physically secure their own borders.

Unfortunately, those conditions are rare in many of the places where U.S. military personnel are currently embroiled.

"The hard question is, OK, if you don't have all those things, do you engage anyway?" asked Rep. Mac Thornberry, R-Texas, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.

"What if you're in a messy place without a strong political infrastructure to work with — do we not engage? ... Do we engage with much lower expectations of what can result?" I don't know the answers," Thornberry said.

Stonewalling in Iraq

The DoD inspector general recently shed new light on the details of U.S. train-and-equip efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The IG, an independent watchdog, has launched a series of reports spotlighting the effectiveness of security cooperation efforts, and on Oct. 22 announced a new investigation into the Pentagon's effort to train, advise and equip Kurdish security forces.

Another recent report focused on the current mission in Iraq, where nearly 3,500 American troops are trying to arm, train, advise and assist Iraqi security forces in their fight against Islamic State militants.

The report outlined what American troops found recently upon returning to a boots-on-the-ground training mission: only limited evidence of the previous U.S. training effort in Iraq that ended in 2011.

In the few years since, the Iraqi force had reverted to a manual, paper-based system for tracking supplies and equipment.

Iraqi troops were living in squalor: At Al Asad Air Base, there was no running water and the troops were using slit-trench latrines. There was no mess hall; soldiers were responsible for procuring their own food. And housing was overcrowded, with up to 14 Iraqi soldiers squeezed into individual "containerized housing units," where typically two or three U.S. troops would live.

Even basic trust and good will were in short supply, as Iraqi officers refused to grant their Americans advisers access to most weapons storage facilities, making it impossible for the U.S. personnel to assess what was on hand and what more might be needed.

That stonewalling and lack of cooperation posed a serious threat to the mission, the IG said.

The Iraqi army's "inability or refusal to conduct complete inventories of its equipment and supplies on hand, or to allow U.S. advisors access to supply warehouses," threatens to impede the U.S. training-and-equipping mission, as well as the Iraqi army's ability to sustain combat operations, the IG bluntly reported.

Lowered expectations

A team of national security experts told lawmakers on Capitol Hill that these train-and-equip missions are inherently fraught with challenges, and military and civilian leaders should avoid high expectations.

"One of the findings of our research is that you can't want it more than they do," Christopher Paul, a researcher with the Rand Corp., told the House committee in that Oct. 21 hearing.

"Willingness to fight, this is an incredibly difficult thing to assess," Paul said. "It's incredibly difficult to know how willing to fight a force is until they are battle tested. ... Lack of willingness can disrupt security cooperation at many different levels, any of which can result in delay, diminished success, or outright failure."

Even when the host-nation military is extraordinarily motivated, such missions still can fail if the government is ineffective or unpopular.

"Unless there is a legitimate, semi-stable political authority that can control a border and actually run a government, efforts to reinforce another country's military are going to have limited success," said Derek Reveron, a national security professor at the U.S. Naval War College.

Some shortcomings within the U.S. military itself also have contributed to some of the failures in recent years, experts said.

Several experts told lawmakers that a "rotational culture" hampers efforts to forge strong relationships with foreign militaries and follow through on new programs needed to support them.

Many U.S. troops also lack a solid "understanding of whatever culture and whatever military we're working with," said retired Air Force Gen. Douglas Fraser, who testified at the hearing.

"I just don't think we're very good at that," Fraser said. "We tend to mirror-image our perspective on other governments and other cultures, and we need to do a better job of understanding what's important within that culture."

Reveron agreed, saying the U.S. military's personnel system "is not producing sufficient talent to support these missions. American forces no longer operate in isolation and need an appreciation of the historical, cultural and political context of where they operate."

U.S. failures

The DoD IG also has found that many problems with these missions are rooted in the U.S. military's own culture.

In some situations in Afghanistan, U.S. advisers "lacked skill because Coalition leadership had not adequately identified the qualifications and experience necessary" for those personnel," according to an IG report released in March.

In addition, the IG noted, the U.S. military's promotion system continues to value traditional operational assignments with combat units over assignments advising and assisting foreign militaries. "There were few personnel incentives to attract more highly skilled and experienced candidates as advisors," the report stated.

Corruption often is cited as a key problem in the governments and defense ministries of nations in which the U.S. is engaged in train-and-assist missions. Yet the IG said U.S. officials may not be focusing on that issue to the degree warranted.

"Efficient and accountable resource management by these ministries was not an advisory priority emphasized in the early stages of U.S. and Coalition involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan," the report said.

Underlying many of the stalled train-and-equip programs is simple illiteracy. And U.S. forces often fail to fully appreciate how limited the education levels are in places like Afghanistan.

The result is foreign militaries filled out with units that might be able to run fire-and-maneuver drills but cannot maintain a larger command-and-control system or the technological infrastructure that an American-style command requires.

"Low literacy rates, inadequate generation and distribution of electricity, and lack of information networking capacity were command and control limitations inherent to Afghanistan," the IG's March report concluded.

'Free riders'

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... am skipping this (last) part because of reaching size-limit; source:
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
comes from AirForceTimes:
Troubled train-and-equip U.S. strategy sparks questions

... am skipping this (last) part because of reaching size-limit; source:
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... And those things happened because we do not have clear well defined mission objectives and goals. We will continue to waste even more billion$ in the next year and maybe even American lives because I do not see things change anytime soon. There will be the occasional drone strikes, maybe a few spec op mission here and there but nothing much will change.
The US foreign policy as pertaining to Syria has been one of abject failure IMHO.
Assad is still in power, Russian forces are in country, ISIS and dozens of other militant groups are still very active there and continue to control large swath of the country while millions have been displaced, thousands more innocent civilians murdered and a refugee crises that is absolutely massive in scope.
This is not even counting the economic cost and lost treasures in terms of ancient monuments destroyed, infrastructure gone and collapse of the economy.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
... And those things happened because we do not have clear well defined mission objectives and goals. We will continue to waste even more billion$ in the next year and maybe even American lives because I do not see things change anytime soon. There will be the occasional drone strikes, maybe a few spec op mission here and there but nothing much will change.
The US foreign policy as pertaining to Syria has been one of abject failure IMHO.
Assad is still in power, Russian forces are in country, ISIS and dozens of other militant groups are still very active there and continue to control large swath of the country while millions have been displaced, thousands more innocent civilians murdered and a refugee crises that is absolutely massive in scope.
This is not even counting the economic cost and lost treasures in terms of ancient monuments destroyed, infrastructure gone and collapse of the economy.

The point here is, who exactly are the FSA? The supposed leadership has changed regularly and is now since July an anonymous committee based in Turkey. There is no obvious or high profile figurehead, let alone an active Commander in Chief, neither is their any political leadership.
This of itself is incredible, given that these are supposed to be fighting for Democracy, have occupied territory for several years, but have not even held any form of election within those territories.
Just compare this with the rebels in Eastern Ukraine, who held elections and elected leaders within 6 months of their rebellion. In Ukraine we always knew who the militia leaders were and who the Political leadership was. In Syria its just a black hole.

This really adds weight to the notion of the FSA really being a Quatermaster service, receiving money and weapons from external donors and distributing them to the mass of disparate groups on the ground on the basis that they recognise a general strategic authority and direct against specific targets. Sometimes this seems to have worked, in other not and often as not backfired spectacularly and ended up supplying Al-Qidea if not ISIS directly.
In short not so much a dedicated military force, but a Franchise of convenience, that would many would describe as mercenary.
In addition, with such a set up, its not difficult to understand why half a billion dollars has failed to produce more than a few dozen fighters, as the chances as vast quantities of money/weapons have simply been pocketed at all levels of the distribution network. This is no doubt exactly what Lavrov was alluding too, when he talked about whoever or wherever the FSA were.

Pepe Escobar described the situation recently as a mixture of headless chickens and sitting ducks, and I fully see where he is coming from.

It is also not difficult to appreciate, that with the gravy train running dry and no obvious leadership to rally popular support around, that many rebel fighter groups will be prepared to take the Russian brokered deal and take themselves out the Sukhoi target list.
 

janjak desalin

Junior Member
putin needs to adopt western approach to benefit his budget by massive direct(or indirect) support of those wishing to undermine little rich gulf monarchies. religious unrest, subversive actions, disruptions of transportation, border wars, etc., might quickly raise the price of oil.
us oil companies will also benefit from that.
i don't think Putin will go that route. if, and when, it becomes necessary to affect a change in oil-monarchies' behaviors, i think he'll use a more dire(ct) method, i. e., demonstrating the vulnerability of west-Persian Gulf oil-installations to ship and air-launched cruise missiles.
 

janjak desalin

Junior Member
When you calculate the cost, attrition and human suffering of long low-intensity conflict vs blitzkrieg, at the bottom line blitzkrieg is far less costly although casualties could be very high in some days. [...]
who, but you, is comparing the costs of reconnaissance-by-battle to those of blitzkrieg? the term, blitzkrieg, was referenced specifically for its temporal connotations. the author is comparing the costs of reconnaissance-by-battle to those of the tactics of SAA past-practice.


[...]What we have instead are uncoordinated attacks with company to battalion sized groups of SAA, NDF and Hezbollah , sometimes having too much armor and no infantry , sometimes going without armor and artillery . They mostly attack from one or two directions directly on certain objectives, underutilizing superior range , and rarely bypassing strong-points to get to the rear of rebel forces . In such scenario, rebels are able to inflict substantial casualties on SAA, sometimes they retreat but are almost never completely destroyed or cut-off from their supply bases.
your battlefield intelligence is either first-hand/rate or speculative. conversely, alternative reports detail events that contradict your theoretical analyses.
see:
Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:46

Syrian Army Kills over 130 Militants in Southern Parts of Aleppo
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excerpt: [...]
"On Sunday, informed sources said that the joint massive operation of the Syrian Armed Forces and the Lebanese Hezbollah has resulted in the recapture of over 45 square kilometers of territories in the Southern parts of the Northern city of Aleppo.

The sources said that the Syrian Army’s 4th Mechanized Division, in coordination with Hezbollah, Harakat Al-Nujaba from Iraq, the National Defense Forces (NDF) of Aleppo city, and Kataebat Al-Ba’ath (Al-Ba’ath Battalions), have advanced deep into the heart of the Aleppo Southern countryside after spending 10 days combatting the militants from the Free Syrian Army, Harakat Nour Al-Deen Al-Zinki, Harakat Ahrar Al-Sham, and Liwaa Suqour Al-Sham.

The success at Al-Amariyah battlefront has allowed the Syrian Armed Forces and Lebanese Resistance increase their territorial gains in Southern Aleppo to over 45 square kilometers in just 10 days; the victories mark the largest series of gains for the Syrian Armed Forces and Hezbollah since their 60 day long Zabadani offensive."
as i stated, i agree with your overall analysis as accurately representing past-practice. nevertheless, those on the ground, those doing the fighting, have adapted their tactics to the realities they face in the present. as a former USMC infantryman, i know that their battle perspectives far outweigh any historically-based, generalized, textbook-theory, analyses.


and, btw, don't anyone else go pretendin' to have 'discovered' the site from which i excerpted this article, either.o_O
 
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janjak desalin

Junior Member
additionally,
Russian Airstrikes Prove Effective as the Syrian Army Recovers Over 90km of Territory in Aleppo
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By
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on October 26, 2015

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excerpt:
"The Russian Federation’s Air Force began their aerial campaign inside Syria on September 30th and since then, the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) and their allies have recovered over 90km of territory in the Aleppo Governorate; 25km of territory in northern Hama and southern Idlib; and over 35km of territory in northeastern Latakia and the Al-Ghaab Plains of west Hama."

again, don't anyone else go pretendin' to have 'discovered' the site from which i excerpted this article, either.o_O
 
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janjak desalin

Junior Member
and,
Syrian Army Captures Al-Mansoura Inside the Al-Ghaab Plains
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on October 26, 2015

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full text:

"The Syrian Arab Army’s 45th Regiment of the 1st Armored Division – in coordination with the National Defense Forces of Joureen and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP) – have been immersed in a violent battle with the Islamist rebels of “Jaysh Al-Fateh” (Army of Conquest) at the town of Al-Mansoura inside the Al-Ghaab Plains, where the Syrian Armed Forces are attempting to recapture a large chunk of territory they lost to the aforementioned Islamist group.
On Sunday morning, the Syrian Arab Army and the National Defense Forces were able to repel Harakat Ahrar Al-Sham’s (Jaysh Al-Fateh’s largest faction) three day long assault on the Al-Mansoura Grain Silos after a series of intense firefights that ended with the Islamist rebels retreating to the southern perimeter of Al-Mansoura.

Following the Syrian Armed Forces’ success at the Al-Mansoura Grain Silos, the Syrian Arab Army’s 45th Regiment carried out an assault on Harakat Ahrar Al-Sham’s defenses at Al-Mansoura’s southern perimeter, resulting in a violent exchange between the two parties before the Russian Air Force’s MI-24 Helicopter Gunships entered the battle.

The Russian Air Force’s choppers and fighter jets pounded Jaysh Al-Fateh’s positions at Al-Mansoura, Al-Ziyarah, Al-Sirmaniyah, Al-Ghaniyah, Jisr Al-Shughour, and Al-Frikka, killing scores of enemy combatants and destroying several armored vehicles.

Finally, after the Russian Air Force fractured Jaysh Al-Fateh’s frontline defenses at Al-Mansoura, the Syrian Armed Forces were able to clear the aforementioned town and impose full control of it before nightfall on Sunday."
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Excellent information Janjak.

The Russians are coordinating their air strikes with the Syrians (and probably others) on the ground actually to recover ground from ISIS for Syria. And as their ally, what else would or should we expect? Russia is going in there to bolster their own interests in the area by actually helping Syria win its war against ISIS and other attempting to over throw their ally.

US air capabilities are at least as good if not better (and far more numerous) than Russia's, but the key difference is that the US efforts were specifically not intended, or desired to help Assad and Syria recover ground. With this current US administration's misbegotten efforts, they could only pin prick ISIS because they had no one on the ground to recover and hold ground...and they specifically did not want Syria to do so...who has the large ground force available.

This is why the Russian effort is going to work.

With Assad and his forces now having reliable and effective air support...and probably air cover I might add...they can begin to roll things back.

I am willing to bet that part of the "understanding for safety in the air," that has been worked out includes the US and its allies not attempting to intervene in actions Russia is taking in the air in concert with Syrian and other forces on the ground.
 
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