indian ocean conflict

trkl said:

Russia needs money to develop the PAK-FA and they have offered India a joint development program. I havent heard any comfermation the India has accepted, but most Indians believe that India will. If India is funding part of the PAK-FA program, they will definately be getting PAK-FAs as soon as it is ready, and probably with ToT.

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A couple of months ago, Russia was asking for the EU's help with the PAK FA. I'll try to dig out the article, but it sorta shows that India was not (probably at that time, don't know now) giving enough funding for it.

About me comparing the Aster 15/30 to Aegies? They are comparable but I never said the Aegies was inferior. The Standard missile is inferior if you compare it to the Aster! No competition. BTW the ASTER is the only other Naval Sam system that can provide a umberella LIKE the Aegies. No it can't track thousands of targets and guide the missiles but it can do less which is enough.

Is this news of Russia threatning to retain Brahmos' source code is real? I knew that its an unconfirmed one !!


Russia has the intellectual property of Brahmos' source code (only for the missile launcher system) . Original design of Brahmos is definately with India . But since its a joint production there are certain protocols for legalisation.

Russia is just using their Intellectual property rights issues to remind India they are not pleased they did not recently win the Indian naval contract for new submarines.

tphuang said:

It's actually utterly hilarious reading Pakistanis and Indians going at it.

To Pakistanis:
If you think your navy or airforce is better or is going to be better than India's, you are delusional. Stick to getting defensive minded equipments.

To Indians:
PAK-FA is said to be entering services in 2015 by the Russian!!!! It only just finished concept drawing recently and is just entering wind tunnel testing. Considering the past Russian projects overruns, you probably won't see PAK-FA until after 2015.
Aster 15/30 + Shtil compared to Aegis? You guys crack me up.
400-500 KM Brahmos? You guys are going to have to show that you can produce a missile on your own instead of co-developing it with Russians in projects where the Russians do 95% of the work. Remember, the MTCR guideline restricts to exportation of cruise misisles to under 300KM in range.

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Isn't the SU-30 MKI one of the best aircraft in the world? It might even be superior to the ones the PLAAF has. These planes do not need replacement until after 2015.

It's just a matter of pride for the Indians to say that they can developed the Brahmos. I mean in war, the last thing on your mind when Brahmos is targeting you is how much the Indian part of its development was.

The truth is, in the Indian ocean, India is second only to the US in power projection and capability. Any chinese outpost or base within the perephiry of India will the priority target if hostilities start. China will not have sufficient capability to reinforced it in force as long as the Indian navy guards the Indian ocean mouth to the Malacca Straights.

IDonT said:

The truth is, in the Indian ocean, India is second only to the US in power projection and capability. Any chinese outpost or base within the perephiry of India will the priority target if hostilities start. China will not have sufficient capability to reinforced it in force as long as the Indian navy guards the Indian ocean mouth to the Malacca Straights.

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Very true !!
And China is the second strongest in east and south China sea next to US. Though Japan can emerge as the strongest at any time due to their advanced technical knoledge and economy !!!


It seems that a Chinese attacking armada is not going to bite in Indian ocean but what will happen if India attacks ?? Imagine an Indian battle group supported by two (or one ) carriers set sail deep into Malacca strait . What will happen if India decides to challenge China in Gulf of Thailand or along south Vietnam coast !!!
Assuming the close ties between Vietnam and India , Vietnam decides to let its ports( Ho chi min city ?) used by Indian Navy !!

Well, by 2012, the PLAN's capability should have grown tremendously. The problem with predicting the PLAN's capability is that much of China's weapon's projects are shrouded in secrecy while for the IN, it is more known to the public. So I think that it would be safe to acknowledge the strength of the PN and IN by 2012, but the PLAN? Probably not. Who knows what can happen by 2012? Hell, the PLAN could probaby have 2 squadrons of Backfires by then along with Su-35bm's as interceptors. We really can't be sure.

crazyinsane105 said:

You just can't beleive how many people in PDF think that. I am a Pakistani but honestly, the IAF and IN are in much better shape than the PN. Now, I did make arguements how PN can fight, but only defensively. I can't see PN winning against the IN singlehandedly. Same goes with the PAF.

On a positive note, this conversation is very professional. If this same conversation was taking place on PDF or some other Pakistani or Indian forum, we all have a good idea of the type of language that would be used.

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I agree with crazyinsane. Nice to see the conversation can be kept civil.

ok in Naval and Aerial terms there is no way that the Pakistani military can take on India mostly because India has more equipment. I'm not sure about the training for Indian pilots especially because of their incredible attrition (something like 200 in a decade) rate.

So basically Pakistan will be using strategy to outmanouvere Indian technological and qualitative assets.

Essentially Pakistan hopes to use missiles and mines to deny India access to middle eastern oil in the event of war. Pakistan's orthodox naval forces will be based in the West. Gwadar will be a part of this because one of the terms of the secret Gawadar friendship treaty between Pakistan - China will be that in the event of war China will issue a warning that any attack on Gwadar will be deemed an attack on China. That should considerably complicate Indian naval tasks. So in the West Pakistan follows an orthodox strategy

Pakistan has also been pursuing an unorthodox strategy by attempting to tie down as much of the IN in the East as possible. Whilst most of the south Eastern nations distrust China Pakistan has been cultivating it's Islamic contacts there by advising them of the benefits of friendship with China and dangers of Indian hegemony

The Pakistani naval ship, Babur , a destroyer and the ocean going tanker Nasar (Chinese built) had visited Lakgkawai, Malaysia to participate in the LIMA2003 (Langkawi International Maritime and Air show). There are several Malaysian officers undergoing military training courses in Pakistan. In March 2003, Pakistan participated in the International Defense Exhibition and Conference in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates and the French Agosta 90B submarine built at the KSEW was on display.

Pakistan is steadily but surely expanding ties in South Asia and Southeast Asia particularly with Islamic countries. The economic and political isolation due to its nuclear tests in 1998, its role in triggering the Kargil conflict, and Musharraf's 1999 bloodless coup are events of the past. It is courting Myanmar and Bangladesh. Interestingly, Pakistan Navy was the first foreign navy to pay a visit to Myanmar. Bangladesh is contemplating to purchase a second hand submarine from Pakistan. Importantly, countries like Myanmar, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei will emerge as a strong staging post for the eastward Pakistani expansion to offer a strategic leverage in dealing with India.

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In February 2001, a small delegation from Pakistan visited Maldives to boost cultural ties. "The Pakistanis put pressure on Male to facilitate Chinese plans for a naval base," said an official. "China used Pakistan to play the Islamic card with Maldives."

China is close to striking a formal deal with Maldives for Marao. It will use Marao islands for 25 years on lease and pay back Maldives in foreign currency and create jobs for the locals dependent entirely on tourism and fishing.

Superpower ambitions

The Marao base's principal aim would be to contain the Indian navy. "China," said a naval official, "is worried that the Indian Navy is getting more natural islets in the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal to establish bases that can impose a sea denial on China in case of a conflict in the South China Sea and harm Chinese interests in the Indian Ocean region."

But the Marao base is not expected to be operational until 2010. In the interim, according to a November 2000 white paper on China's national defence, PLAN and PLA's naval air force could deploy a minimum of two aircraft carrier battle groups and five submarine groups in the Indian Ocean. Oilers, AWACS and refueling aircraft will support these groups.

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Of course Pakistan hasn't really moved into full gear yet when it comes to Indonesia and Malaysia but once Pakistan lays out the full scope of India's ambitions 'to dominate the Indian ocean'...India will have to think of many factors

FreeAsia2000 said:

I agree with crazyinsane. Nice to see the conversation can be kept civil.

ok in Naval and Aerial terms there is no way that the Pakistani military can take on India mostly because India has more equipment. I'm not sure about the training for Indian pilots especially because of their incredible attrition (something like 200 in a decade) rate.

So basically Pakistan will be using strategy to outmanouvere Indian technological and qualitative assets.

Essentially Pakistan hopes to use missiles and mines to deny India access to middle eastern oil in the event of war. Pakistan's orthodox naval forces will be based in the West. Gwadar will be a part of this because one of the terms of the secret Gawadar friendship treaty between Pakistan - China will be that in the event of war China will issue a warning that any attack on Gwadar will be deemed an attack on China. That should considerably complicate Indian naval tasks. So in the West Pakistan follows an orthodox strategy

Pakistan has also been pursuing an unorthodox strategy by attempting to tie down as much of the IN in the East as possible. Whilst most of the south Eastern nations distrust China Pakistan has been cultivating it's Islamic contacts there by advising them of the benefits of friendship with China and dangers of Indian hegemony

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Of course Pakistan hasn't really moved into full gear yet when it comes to Indonesia and Malaysia but once Pakistan lays out the full scope of India's ambitions 'to dominate the Indian ocean'...India will have to think of many factors

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Gwadar also has the added advantage of being further away from India than Karachi. However, Karachi today is Pakistan's only deep water port. One of the Indian NAvy's first moves will be to blockade it, thereby forcing the PN to try to break the blockade. PN assets will be concetrated on Karachi, effectively neutralizing Gwadar without firing a shot. A blockade on Karachi does not necessarily mean within close proximaty to Pakistan.

By this point, I think Pakistan will use nukes. I believe they 3 scenarios when they will use nukes.

1.) If large amounts of their land is captured
2.) If large portions of their airforce is destroyed
3.) If Pakistan is cut off from international trade.

IDonT said:

Gwadar also has the added advantage of being further away from India than Karachi. However, Karachi today is Pakistan's only deep water port. One of the Indian NAvy's first moves will be to blockade it, thereby forcing the PN to try to break the blockade. PN assets will be concetrated on Karachi, effectively neutralizing Gwadar without firing a shot. A blockade on Karachi does not necessarily mean within close proximaty to Pakistan.

By this point, I think Pakistan will use nukes. I believe they 3 scenarios when they will use nukes.

1.) If large amounts of their land is captured
2.) If large portions of their airforce is destroyed
3.) If Pakistan is cut off from international trade.

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I think that India won't push Pakistan that far into using nukes. If Gwadar is fully operational, than blocking Karachi would not have adverse effects upon Pakistan. Much of the trade would then start to enter from Gwadar. And by 2012, I think it is possible that Gwadar can become a major trading hub. So the Indians would be forced to block Gwadar one way or the other.