Indian navy running into carrier problems....

crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
This is kinda sad. First the Russians are going to be four years late on India's aircraft carrier, and India's own indigneous aircraft carrier program has hit snags as well.



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After Gorshkov, another Navy project hit by delay


NEW DELHI: The bad news for Navy shows no sign of stopping. The country's most ambitious ship-building project, construction of a 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) at Cochin shipyard, is running way behind schedule. Sources said current projections show IAC will be ready for delivery to Navy earliest by 2015, after completion of construction and trials, instead of the earlier date of 2011-2012.

The IAC project, cleared by the government in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 3,261 crore after several years of dilly-dallying, is lagging behind on "almost all fronts".

"First, there was a big problem in getting 20,000 tonnes of special quality steel for it till SAIL stepped in. Then, there was a huge delay in procurement of bulb bars. Once these was sorted out, other problems crept in," a source said.

"The detailed designs and pre-production work also took a lot of time. As per revised plans, the keel of the warship was to be laid in October 2007 but this has been postponed by at least an year now. Consequently, the project cost will also go up substantially," he added.

All this will add to the woes of Navy, already grappling with huge delays in some big-ticket projects. The induction of the decommissioned Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, for instance, will not be possible before 2010. Rechristened INS Vikramaditya, this 44,570-tonne carrier was supposed to be operationally ready by August 2008, as per the Rs 6,900 crore package deal signed with Russia in January 2004.

Then, of course, there are slippages in the gigantic Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks, slated for delivery between 2012 and 2017.

In the IAC project, the government has even signed two contracts worth 28 million Euros with Italian firm Fincantieri for design, integration, installation and commissioning of the IAC's propulsion system, apart from consultancy in detailed engineering and documentation.

"But despite the steel being cut at the Cochin shipyard in April 2005, the ship construction began only in November 2006," said the source.

To be charitable, one can argue this is the first time India is building an aircraft carrier, which has been the preserve of only US, UK, Russia and France so far.

But almost all defence projects of India suffer from huge time and cost overruns, underlining the lack of proper planning. Though the Navy has projected the need for three aircraft carriers to emerge as the most potent force in the region, it is making do with only one, the 50-year-old INS Viraat, at the moment. Be that as it may, once it is ready, the 252-metre-long IAC will have two runways with ski-jumps and a landing strip with three arrester wires, with the flight deck being around 2.5 acres.

With 160 officers and 1,400 sailors, the ship will be able to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 10 helicopters. Powered by four LM2500 gas turbines generating 80 MW, the carrier will be able to attain a maximum speed of 28 knots and be operationally deployed for 45 days at a stretch.




The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract will be delayed indefinitely due to insufficient financing and poor management of the project, a Russian daily said Wednesday.

The contract to deliver the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India, which state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed with the Indian Navy in January 2004, covers the modernization of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including the MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The ship is undergoing modernization work at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, in northern Russia, but its completion could be delayed for at least another four years, according to some reports.

"The aircraft carrier is being overhauled at the shipyard, but, unfortunately, the funds allocated for the work under the contract are not sufficient and we will have a hard time to meet the schedule," the Izvestia newspaper cited Eduard Borisov, the acting director of Sevmash, as saying.

"We are practically building a new ship using an old hull and changing everything else," Borisov said, adding that the company's management had earlier made an incorrect assessment of the modernization cost.

A high ranking source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti that the company's officials had underestimated the projected overhaul budget by at least 60-70% but had denied their mistakes for a long time.

He said the work already done on the Admiral Gorshkov could be compared to the construction of two destroyers.

"It would have been much easier to start the construction of an aircraft carrier from scratch than to modernize the old one," the source said.

Former director of the Sevmash shipyard, Vladimir Pastukhov, has been recently fired over his poor management of the project and some media reports suggested that prosecutors had been investigating a possible fraud case over mismanagement of funds by Sevmash officials.

Izvestia said Nikolai Kalistratov, the general director of the neighboring Zvyozdochka shipyard, could be appointed as the new head of Sevmash in the next few weeks.

The $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov sale is one of Russia's largest individual military deals with India. The two countries are currently working on military contracts worth $10 billion.

After joining the Indian Navy, the 45,000-ton aircraft carrier will be renamed the INS Vikramaditya and could replace the outdated INS Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which India purchased from Britain in 1986


Shipbuilder Head Fired Over Delay

Combined Reports Vladimir Pastukhov has been dismissed as general director of Sevmash shipyard, the country's largest shipbuilding enterprise, over the company's failure to fulfill a $1.5 billion contract to modernize an aircraft carrier sold to India in 2004, Interfax reported Wednesday.

"The reason for Pastukhov's dismissal is the failure to carry out the contract to re-equip and modernize the aircraft carrier on behalf of the Indian navy," a source at Sevmash told Interfax. "The contract is delayed for three years. ... The realistic date ... is now 2011."

Under the contract, Sevmash shipyard was due by 2008 to upgrade and re-equip the ship, built in 1987, to combine the power of a missile cruiser and capabilities of an aircraft carrier.

Indian media and officials have said the ship, with a squadron of MIG-29 jet fighters on board, would considerably enhance the firepower of the Indian navy and bring nuclear rival China within range. India is the only country in South Asia that has an aircraft carrier, an issue of concern for some of its smaller neighbors.

Interfax quoted the Sevmash source as saying that miscalculating the amount of work needed to renovate the ship had led to problems.

"After a more detailed examination was conducted, it became clear that the ship's technological condition is awful and that money allocated for the renovation is not enough," he said.
The source at Sevmash also said the most likely replacement for Pastukhov would be Nikolai Kalistratov, who is currently general director of Zvyozdochka ship-repair plant, Interfax reported.


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crazyinsane105

Junior Member
VIP Professional
What I don't understand is why didn't India just order the Russian shipyard to build a completely brand new aircraft carrier? It doesn't make sense to use an old hull and add completely new features to it...it's even more expensive than building an aircraft carrier from scratch according to the Russian shipyard. :confused:
 

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I think the Russians managed to fool indians with the "free price" and made the offer of just small modifications sound so lucarious that Indians couldnt refuse it. You have to rememeber that politicans are the ones that decided this level of purchase and to any noob's mind a ordering carrier to be build from scratch sounds awfully expensive compared to repair of carrier for such task.
And to my knowlidge, Russia doesent have dock-yards suited for such large warship construction. All Soviet carriers were build in Nikolajev Ukraina.
 

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
Russia has never done this AC conversion project before, nor has India ever built an AC of its own. There will be delays and problems, think of it as a learning experience for them...

I don't even think the Russians have THAT much experience with building and operating carriers, at least not as much as the French, and even they had problems.
 
D

Deleted member 675

Guest
In some respects it shows that the Gorshkov project was still worth it, unless one argues that money spent there would have helped the domestic one (I'm not sure that would have been the case).

Either way, it's a learning experience for India. The important thing is that they get working, "quality" aircraft carriers not too late next decade.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
It all kind of makes you wonder if the Indian Navy may be driven to an act of near-desperation to replace Viraat, such as seeking an Invincible class carrier to fill in the gap for a few years if Viraat's operational life proves impossible to extend any further. That said, acquiring a used interim replacement could cause a fair number of problems and disruptions, too. All this news just isn't good.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
In some respects it shows that the Gorshkov project was still worth it, unless one argues that money spent there would have helped the domestic one (I'm not sure that would have been the case).

Either way, it's a learning experience for India. The important thing is that they get working, "quality" aircraft carriers not too late next decade.

Indeed, if one where to use the ridiculously convulted history of the Arjun orthe Tejas as an example, Indian defence companies are currently is going through a 'teething process', the first painful steps towards creating an industry that is self sufficent and indigenous. Until recently India's military relied on liscenced copies of existing weapons, such as the FN FAL or the Sterling SMG or the MiG-29 which has mean't India's military is completely at the beck and call of other nations. There is an all too recent example of this with the MiG-35 contract tha India is mulling over. Although the Mig-35 is an excellent fighter, nearly all of India's ariforce and their upcoming carrier force will be mostly Russian and while the Russians are always keen to share technology, they are chronically short of spare parts and the MiG-35 most likely will be no exception. In addition there are several points within the contractthat the Indians aren't too keen on (although unfortunately I cannot remember off hand the specifics but I think they pertain to issues with Pakistan). The over dependance on foriegn technology, is a problem for the Indian military which they are adressing with their new projects within the last decade or so which are slowly (and expensively) paying off. While the Arjun took around twenty years to create, the experience has helped DRDO with their 'Abhay' IFV project that actually seems on track. The Tejas also took a while, especially during the economic slump of the early 90's but now it will finally be delivered next year and the experience has helped HAL develop the HJT-36 Sitara advanced trainer in a very short amount of time from it's announcement of the project in 1999 to the first prototype flight in 2003.
 

Neutral Zone

Junior Member
Just goes to show how difficult it is to build a carrier. Apart from America, no one builds them on a regular basis, which means that you lose all the experience of the designers. The French had huge problems with Charles de Gaulle, one of the worst being that the flight deck was too short to allow Hawkeyes to operate safely.

I hope that the people in charge of the CVF project are paying close attention to India's difficulties and learn the right lessons. Britain hasn't built a full sized carrier since the 1950's and that was mainly finishing off ships that had been started during WW2. I have a nasty feeling that we may be reading similar stories about Queen Elizabeth in 5 years time. :(
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
I hope that the people in charge of the CVF project are paying close attention to India's difficulties and learn the right lessons. Britain hasn't built a full sized carrier since the 1950's and that was mainly finishing off ships that had been started during WW2. I have a nasty feeling that we may be reading similar stories about Queen Elizabeth in 5 years time.

Someone preaching "Doom & Gloom" already..:confused: :( jeez....

I'm sure the UK will enlist the help of it's allies..i.e. USA..to help in the CVF design and construction..

After the "show" with the USMC on board HMS Illustrious you know there is a spirit of cooperation between the RN/USMC & USN..Let's us RN fans hope and pray it continues with the CVF...
 

harryRIEDL

New Member
This is kinda sad. First the Russians are going to be four years late on India's aircraft carrier, and India's own indigneous aircraft carrier program has hit snags as well.



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After Gorshkov, another Navy project hit by delay


NEW DELHI: The bad news for Navy shows no sign of stopping. The country's most ambitious ship-building project, construction of a 37,500-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier (IAC) at Cochin shipyard, is running way behind schedule. Sources said current projections show IAC will be ready for delivery to Navy earliest by 2015, after completion of construction and trials, instead of the earlier date of 2011-2012.

The IAC project, cleared by the government in January 2003 at a cost of Rs 3,261 crore after several years of dilly-dallying, is lagging behind on "almost all fronts".

"First, there was a big problem in getting 20,000 tonnes of special quality steel for it till SAIL stepped in. Then, there was a huge delay in procurement of bulb bars. Once these was sorted out, other problems crept in," a source said.

"The detailed designs and pre-production work also took a lot of time. As per revised plans, the keel of the warship was to be laid in October 2007 but this has been postponed by at least an year now. Consequently, the project cost will also go up substantially," he added.

All this will add to the woes of Navy, already grappling with huge delays in some big-ticket projects. The induction of the decommissioned Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, for instance, will not be possible before 2010. Rechristened INS Vikramaditya, this 44,570-tonne carrier was supposed to be operationally ready by August 2008, as per the Rs 6,900 crore package deal signed with Russia in January 2004.

Then, of course, there are slippages in the gigantic Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks, slated for delivery between 2012 and 2017.

In the IAC project, the government has even signed two contracts worth 28 million Euros with Italian firm Fincantieri for design, integration, installation and commissioning of the IAC's propulsion system, apart from consultancy in detailed engineering and documentation.

"But despite the steel being cut at the Cochin shipyard in April 2005, the ship construction began only in November 2006," said the source.

To be charitable, one can argue this is the first time India is building an aircraft carrier, which has been the preserve of only US, UK, Russia and France so far.

But almost all defence projects of India suffer from huge time and cost overruns, underlining the lack of proper planning. Though the Navy has projected the need for three aircraft carriers to emerge as the most potent force in the region, it is making do with only one, the 50-year-old INS Viraat, at the moment. Be that as it may, once it is ready, the 252-metre-long IAC will have two runways with ski-jumps and a landing strip with three arrester wires, with the flight deck being around 2.5 acres.

With 160 officers and 1,400 sailors, the ship will be able to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 10 helicopters. Powered by four LM2500 gas turbines generating 80 MW, the carrier will be able to attain a maximum speed of 28 knots and be operationally deployed for 45 days at a stretch.




The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract will be delayed indefinitely due to insufficient financing and poor management of the project, a Russian daily said Wednesday.

The contract to deliver the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India, which state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed with the Indian Navy in January 2004, covers the modernization of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including the MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The ship is undergoing modernization work at the Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk, in northern Russia, but its completion could be delayed for at least another four years, according to some reports.

"The aircraft carrier is being overhauled at the shipyard, but, unfortunately, the funds allocated for the work under the contract are not sufficient and we will have a hard time to meet the schedule," the Izvestia newspaper cited Eduard Borisov, the acting director of Sevmash, as saying.

"We are practically building a new ship using an old hull and changing everything else," Borisov said, adding that the company's management had earlier made an incorrect assessment of the modernization cost.

A high ranking source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti that the company's officials had underestimated the projected overhaul budget by at least 60-70% but had denied their mistakes for a long time.

He said the work already done on the Admiral Gorshkov could be compared to the construction of two destroyers.

"It would have been much easier to start the construction of an aircraft carrier from scratch than to modernize the old one," the source said.

Former director of the Sevmash shipyard, Vladimir Pastukhov, has been recently fired over his poor management of the project and some media reports suggested that prosecutors had been investigating a possible fraud case over mismanagement of funds by Sevmash officials.

Izvestia said Nikolai Kalistratov, the general director of the neighboring Zvyozdochka shipyard, could be appointed as the new head of Sevmash in the next few weeks.

The $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov sale is one of Russia's largest individual military deals with India. The two countries are currently working on military contracts worth $10 billion.

After joining the Indian Navy, the 45,000-ton aircraft carrier will be renamed the INS Vikramaditya and could replace the outdated INS Viraat, a Centaur-class aircraft carrier, which India purchased from Britain in 1986


Shipbuilder Head Fired Over Delay

Combined Reports Vladimir Pastukhov has been dismissed as general director of Sevmash shipyard, the country's largest shipbuilding enterprise, over the company's failure to fulfill a $1.5 billion contract to modernize an aircraft carrier sold to India in 2004, Interfax reported Wednesday.

"The reason for Pastukhov's dismissal is the failure to carry out the contract to re-equip and modernize the aircraft carrier on behalf of the Indian navy," a source at Sevmash told Interfax. "The contract is delayed for three years. ... The realistic date ... is now 2011."

Under the contract, Sevmash shipyard was due by 2008 to upgrade and re-equip the ship, built in 1987, to combine the power of a missile cruiser and capabilities of an aircraft carrier.

Indian media and officials have said the ship, with a squadron of MIG-29 jet fighters on board, would considerably enhance the firepower of the Indian navy and bring nuclear rival China within range. India is the only country in South Asia that has an aircraft carrier, an issue of concern for some of its smaller neighbors.

Interfax quoted the Sevmash source as saying that miscalculating the amount of work needed to renovate the ship had led to problems.

"After a more detailed examination was conducted, it became clear that the ship's technological condition is awful and that money allocated for the renovation is not enough," he said.
The source at Sevmash also said the most likely replacement for Pastukhov would be Nikolai Kalistratov, who is currently general director of Zvyozdochka ship-repair plant, Interfax reported.


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'The overhaul of a Russian-made aircraft carrier sold to India under a 2004 contract will be delayed indefinitely due to insufficient financing and poor management of the project, a Russian daily said Wednesday.' thats new this indefinite delay. this is bad this Gorshov affair and where did this IAC delay come from i thought it was going well apart from the steel shortages at this rate INS Viraat will be in service till 2020 [india should have bought the 1st in class of IAC in a Euro yard and built the rest in inda]

'To be charitable, one can argue this is the first time India is building an aircraft carrier, which has been the preserve of only US, UK, Russia and France so far.' pardon if i rember both:nono: Spain and Italy have built their own carriers [spain has built for other countries]
 
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