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Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

Kavari Engine has been under development for almost 20 years, as far as i know no more than a dozen protoypes have been produced and ive lost count of the cost of the programme

i cant see it ever being deployed on a fighter aircraft, especially if the aircraft is new also

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

asif iqbal said:

Kavari Engine has been under development for almost 20 years, as far as i know no more than a dozen protoypes have been produced and ive lost count of the cost of the programme

i cant see it ever being deployed on a fighter aircraft, especially if the aircraft is new also

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Manufacturing such an engine itself is limited to a very few nations, nations does struggle in the quest for such technologies, one possible opportunity if to mention is using it in future Indian pursed Rafales instead of M-88 but I doubt France will agree with such an arrangement if it is technically possible, using the technology gained in future medium category MCA is thought of it maybe the K-9 or the K-10 with French collaboration, how ever the MoU have not been signed yet afaik, K-9 might see application for Indian drone and earned technologies can help designing a high bypass turbofan, marine turbine is another scope of use and also a miniature turbofan. Such technologies are not available off the self, commercially available option got clauses and limitation for usage, you need to give your own effort to learn and earn the technology unless otherwise, this is a quest for knowledge not a competition to describe.

---------- Post added at 09:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 PM ----------

The last of the Shivalik class will be inducted on 21 july

( How to post an independent second post? )

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Meanwhile the first of the three follow on orders for Talwar class frigates being manufactured in Russia, the INS Teg have arrived in India These ships will have vertical launch BrahMos instead of Klub AShM found on the first three Talwar class.

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

Yeah agree. Those engines are insanely hard to manufacture. Even today, still only 4 countries or less could mass produce it cheaply and make all products meet design expectations, those are Russia, USA, France, and UK. Although China can somewhat mass produce WS-10, the perfection rate for single crystal blade is still pretty low. Usually a lot of extras have to be made in order to meet order demand, usually a lot don't pass quality inspection. If China can solve this problem, than the Russians would be instantly out the door. There wouldn't be any further orders of AL-31s.

I was actually amazed to read that it's actually cheaper to buy AL31 from Russians than to locally produce WS-10. Usually we associate China with low cost goods. But in this case, because so many extra blades have to be made, it makes the price rise to a lot higher than design expectations.

Hopefully China can fix this problem soon. But as of right now, PLAAF just order another 100 AL31 this year, showing the problem still exists.

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bd popeye said:

Most USN ships no matter the size have gyms with weights & treadmills. Never heard of a sauna or a swimming pool on a USN ship.

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Hahaha, yeah, I know it sounds ridiculous. But you can actually watch the footage of Typhoon on YouTube. There's a sauna and swimming pool inside a submarine. Blows your mind away. The biggest shock is how much space there is. It feels even more spacious than the rooms inside an aircraft carrier. I guess it's due to only 120 men inside a 30,000-40,000 ton submarine.

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

Vini_Vidi_Vici said:

I was actually amazed to read that it's actually cheaper to buy AL31 from Russians than to locally produce WS-10. Usually we associate China with low cost goods. But in this case, because so many extra blades have to be made, it makes the price rise to a lot higher than design expectations.

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What China lacks is the precision fabrication sector - your iPad might be "made" in China but the fact is "assembled" in China, just about all the high-tech component still need to be sourced abroad. Not saying they couldn't, but even now they still lack the ability to churn out those precision products in quality and quantity.

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

Single crystal blades are extremely demanding customers. A friend who used to work for Royals Royce told me a fascinating story once.

Back in the day, RR had a serious quality control issue with their single crystal blades where the blades had an unusually high failure rate and for a long time, no-one could figure out what the cause was.

Every major facet of production was checked, rechecked and triple checked, found to be on spec yet the blades kept failing.

In the end, one of the senior engineers decided to physically follow the production of a batch of blades himself from start to finish, and he only discovered the cause of the defects at the very end, when the freshly made blades were placed into the warehouse.

Turns out, the guys at the warehouse were just stacking the new blades one on top of another in large stacks, and the weight of the blades on top caused those at the bottom of the pile to weaken and deform by a tiny tiny fraction, but that was enough to cause the blades to fail when stressed at max thrust.

That just shows how even the smallest, most insignificant seeming thing could make all the difference when you are dealing with materials of such high performance and tolerances.

However, I do not think India's engine problems are the result of a simple case of QC.

The Kavari suffers from the same fundamental problems that plague all Indian defense projects - India's blind and utterly insane* trust in foreign ToT.

Foreign companies are profit making entities that cares first (and many suspects only) about their own profits. How would it make any sense for them to teach their biggest cash cow customer how to develop their own stuff so they would no longer need to buy from said foreign companies?

I am really struggling to think of a single example were Indian co-operation with foreign companies and ToT agreements have allowed India to develop a single new advanced weapons system indigenously using the tech they were supposed to have gotten as part of the deal.

Apong, I think you are a very optimistic soul if you think think for a second that the Kavari will become something close to being good enough to replace the French M88s since it is the French who are your main technical consultants on the Kavari in the first place.

The very best case scenario for India would be that after years or decades more development and a frightful amount of consultation fees, the Kavari indeed becomes and engine good enough to replace the M88s in their Rafales. Just in time for France to bring out a new follow-on enough to the M88 that blows the new Kavari out of the water.

*I am using the technical definition for insanity as someone doing exactly the same thing time and time again yet always expecting a different outcome. No insult is meant. How many times has Indian been down this road where a foreign company promised them the world and they ended up with just short of enough to master the technology themselves?

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

Good post plawolf, well I mentioned a possible replacement for the Rafale just to consider the current level of performance achieved by Kaveri which at least in text book seems like a good alternative to Rafale, but Rafale is a class of its own and so is Snecma, even though the thrust output is similar or seems marginally higher but in real time it may not exhibits the required level of performance and ability that the current Rafale enjoys, my point was just that mere installing Kaveri upon an aircraft is not impossible considering development gets over , in other word Kaveri is not designed for the Rafale requirement. The example was merely taken for the sake of showing a utility of the engine which is not serving its original objectives i.e. powering of the Tejas. As the reason is not considered to be that Kaveri cannot power the Tejas but the fact that Air Force requirement have changed to a more powerful platform. Kaveri reached late but considering the fact that better late then never cannot be dismissed, more over the core reason behind all this technical hurdle for military science project is considered to be the effect and price paid for the 98 sanctions upon India. Collaboration with nations halted and required technological assistance for the R&D of such critical program stopped putting many project in jeopardy. The cause of delay is considered to be for the lack of infra structure and technological availability which otherwise was to be obtained through collaboration with other nations, one example is wind tunnel test facility and super computers analytical data. The geo political and strategic interest of the region demand for independence of technology which might not be comparable to other nations and their collaboration in technology. The quest for indigenous ability is not a matter of competition nor pride, it is a matter of technological independence. In the other hand I wont reject the flaws of Indian industries, I agree but let me tell you that considering signing a few agreements and treaties around things would have resulted must easier for the India side. Every nation have its own problem and requirement to take care about.

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

How much of the Kavari is made in India? Are the single crystal blades used fabricated in India or imported?

In addition, how much of the IP in the Kavari is owed and developed by Indian scientists?

The biggest problem for India in terms of JVs and ToT is that all too often, all the foreign partners are interested in is teaching the technically weaker side how to make something instead of explaining why certain design decisions were chosen over others or why a particular technique is preferred etc.

Yet it is these untransfered skills and knowledge that is the core part that allows companies and countries to innovate and make something new and better instead of just making more of the same.

No-one is discriminating against India, it's simply not in anyone's own self-interest to share such expertise unless under the most dire of circumstances (the UK pretty much allowed the Americans to plunder their intellectual national bank in exchange for American loans and supplies when fighting the Nazis).

Afaik the whole of Kaveri program and her technologies are homegrown, which may not be hundred percent indigenous as no current day product are expected to, french are providing consultancy services for the current prototypes, single crystal blade was an Indian product where the previous design had some flaw and have a tendency to throw blades, so the previous attempt to mate the Kaveri to LCA failed but latest high altitude test in Russia has been successfully flown and since then I am not informed about any report stating the update of Kaveri's single crystal blade technology and where about but only states that GTRE have suceeded in sort out the problems involved with the engine development. I dont have any knowledge about ToT for Kaveri afaik Kaveri is not a ToT product.

Active collaboration other then consultancy service for a next generation engine and the core is planned between India and French which is yet to be materailised and could be termed as K-10 prototype.

some related reports..

Research work done on MCA , cannot fully be carried out in AMCA , since lot of changes has been sorted in ASR issued by IAF .ASR of IAF also means that a new engine for a 5th generation fighter aircraft has to be developed ,and Joint venture on Kaveri engine will have to incorporate new technology which are yet to be developed or discussed ,instead of just mating of Eco of M-88-3 engine with Kaveri which was the plan earlier.

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The current cause for a JV with France is for the realisation of a new generation core, note that GTRE was against the utilisation of M-88 core upon K-10 as an intrem solution as other Kaveri prototypes were not ready and not pumping out required performance, because by doing so India have nothing to learn, develop or R&D but just applying the technology to achieve an engine with a made in India tag with foreign technological bindings and limitation, which other wise can be realised through direct foreign purchase just as she did by direct purchase of F-404 and F-414 engines. Current JV effort with France is developing a next generation core which otherwise in not available for a direct purchase, if their is a clash in agreement the JV could fail again, something like the delay involved in maitri SRSAM project which I think France preferred joining the PAAMS instead and India bought the SPYDER system, both nations need the product and do not currently posses the technology. It will depend upon both nations interest to decide upon an agreement. As I have said it before the geo-political and strategical factors will also play its role while deciding upon such projects, As for France she have the EU card at her disposal as an alternative. But it is also that France have withdrawn from the Euro fighter consortium for the same reason.

Re: Indian Arihant Class Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarines

plawolf said:

How much of the Kavari is made in India? Are the single crystal blades used fabricated in India or imported?

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Kaveri (and not Kavari) doesn't use Single Crystal blades currently. They use conventional blades that result in much lower thrust than needed. Kaveri can possibly power a trainer jet very well, but not Tejas.

Single Crystal Blade technology has only been mastered by US, Russia and France.

plawolf said:

In addition, how much of the IP in the Kavari is owed and developed by Indian scientists?

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All of the design IP. A few critical components may be imported, but I'm not sure.

plawolf said:

The biggest problem for India in terms of JVs and ToT is that all too often, all the foreign partners are interested in is teaching the technically weaker side how to make something instead of explaining why certain design decisions were chosen over others or why a particular technique is preferred etc.

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Only outdated ToT is ever transferred. Sometimes it is taken because we don't even have that, but sometimes it is not because we would've already overcome that, and be looking towards the horizon of the latest technology.

India has asked for Blisk and Single Crystal Blade technology from Snecma, but the latter has refused for obvious reasons.

I really don't believe India has to fret over not having developed the Kaveri to perfection. Even Chinese efforts at indigenous engines for its J-10, FC-1 and J-20 fighters have failed spectacularly (they're forced to import Russian engines for all these fighters). This shows that engine technology is very hard to master, and the learning curve is steep.