Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Abominable

Major
Registered Member
Ironically enough, I'm actually British. I'm not Indian, nor have I ever been to India (but I have been to China and follow it on the news, hence my interest in this forum).

I get that my comment looked defensive for India (and that can get some more reactionary members to go straight to assuming my nationality, or maybe that was just a typo?), but it isn't. I'm not defending India, partly because I don't know enough about it in the first place. I try to be as neutral as possible and ask questions about the situation so I can learn more. I presented a fact (people did once believe that China would collapse under its own weight; many still do) and asked for further information and arguments to support presented claims. The coming collapse of a nation is a big claim, so it needs equally "big" evidence in support of it, otherwise it'll end up like those YouTube videos racking up millions of views by saying China will collapse on, checks notes, the 11th September 2022. Whoops, it seems to be the 14th September today. I imagine China is still a thing.

Looking through all those answers, I now have a lot more stuff to read through. Thank you all for providing sources and data that I requested, as well as additional theories (such as by user Nobo). If anyone has anything else to add, please do. I'm interested in learning more about the China/India dynamic.
We get a lot of J-H Indians who come on here to claim how great India is.

Learning about the China-India dynamic is a big waste of time, India isn't China's enemy. Japan, America, etc are China's enemies, India is just an irritant. Before the Galwan invasion, 90% of Chinese didn't even know Indians didn't like China.

India's enemy is Pakistan, and judging by their last encounter I think the Indians will have their hands full beating them.
 

Staedler

Junior Member
Registered Member
Ironically enough, I'm actually British. I'm not Indian, nor have I ever been to India (but I have been to China and follow it on the news, hence my interest in this forum).

I get that my comment looked defensive for India (and that can get some more reactionary members to go straight to assuming my nationality, or maybe that was just a typo?), but it isn't. I'm not defending India, partly because I don't know enough about it in the first place. I try to be as neutral as possible and ask questions about the situation so I can learn more. I presented a fact (people did once believe that China would collapse under its own weight; many still do) and asked for further information and arguments to support presented claims. The coming collapse of a nation is a big claim, so it needs equally "big" evidence in support of it, otherwise it'll end up like those YouTube videos racking up millions of views by saying China will collapse on, checks notes, the 11th September 2022. Whoops, it seems to be the 14th September today. I imagine China is still a thing.

Looking through all those answers, I now have a lot more stuff to read through. Thank you all for providing sources and data that I requested, as well as additional theories (such as by user Nobo). If anyone has anything else to add, please do. I'm interested in learning more about the China/India dynamic.
Poor countries develop by being able to concentrate their resources. This almost always requires the use of the demographic dividend.

The demographic dividend is where healthcare measures cause infant mortality to plummet but the dominant culture hasn't adjusted to the new reality of not needing to give birth to as many kids. This results in a huge youth cohort whom are ready to work and don't need any pension etc. The resulting effect is the government having increased taxable revenues while social expenditures remain low. This demographic dividend disappears over time as people get adjusted to having less kids. While the dividend is active, governments need to invest wisely to move their economy up the value chain.

This means investments into infrastructure, manufacturing, r&d, and so on.

India's infrastructure, manufacturing, and r&d spending are all abysmal even compared to 1990s China. For example China was spending around 1% of GDP on R&D then and still constantly increasing. India has been at 0.5-0.6% for several decades now and with basically no change. India's infrastructure is constantly over-promised and under-built. The difference is manufacturing is also stark.

India still faces constant major civil unrest to this day. Not the "unrest" that media talks about with China, but actual violent revolts with soldiers constantly sent into provinces to impose martial law. Just earlier this year (or 2021?) they sent soldiers into Kashmir and put the province into lockdown with no telecommunications allowed.

At the same time, India's youth cohort has just been idling away. India's labor force participation rate is only 23.7%. That's an incredible amount of young men with no jobs or income - the exact sort of group responsible for nearly all state-ending revolts. For comparison China was at 78% participation rate in the 1990s. And this joblessness has further repercussions down the line - they aren't gaining any work experience or skills in the meantime. Unemployment rate is also significantly higher than China in the 1990s or since.

Now if India was still reaping the dividend, that would just be disappointing but not damning. However, India's TFR is already at 2.0-2.1, which is replacement rate. That means India's demographic dividend is already over. This is already their last generation to benefit.

What other low-hanging fruits do they have?
India's urbanization rate is 35.4% compared to 1990s China's 26.4%.
Their literacy rate is 74.4% which is about the same as China in 1990 (77%).
Their currency has already deprecated 4x against the USD since 1990s (21.5x since independence) and has never appreciated. There has never been a pause in their depreciation either. China maxed out at 4x in the 1990s and has since appreciated significantly and even during those times China's depreciation was always tempered with pauses in the devaluation.
Despite decades of effort, they still suffer from the same caste-based divisions in society. It's bad enough that even their immigrants to the US are frequently reported as making hiring decisions based on caste-signifiers such as name and hometown. Not to mention their persistent sex-based discrimination forcing women out of the labor force.

Even 5 years ago, India was still having major water scarcity problems in addition to lack of clean drinking water. Their cities were running out of groundwater. Only 33% of their population has access to clean drinking water and 200k people there die annually due to water shortages and water-borne diseases. This is stuff India itself acknowledges and has been trying to fix for decades. They were suggesting rainwater collections schemes and building additional desalination plants back then. Those problems haven't been fixed since.

Now tack on all the additional countervailing trends.

Climate change will exacerbate heatwaves across India. India already has pitiful power generation and widespread lack of ACs. That will further cause deaths and drops in productivity. In addition climate change will also cause the monsoon season in India to be wetter but significantly shorter, resulting in crops like rice only have 1 harvesting seasons as opposed to 2. That's a major crunch on their already lacking food production. +40% of Indian children are chronically undernourished and the overall population's dietary gap is about 20-30%. India has in total at least 200 million undernourished people. Existing aquifers will not be sufficiently replenished by shorter monsoons either. Their poverty rate is still +85% today, they won't be able to cope.

Robotics has been consistently displacing people from manufacturing for decades now, but only recently are robots starting to displace even cheap labor. Already the pie is shrinking such that pretty much only textiles are still out of reach. So the window of capital attraction via cheap leabor is already closing. This is before considering how much more competition there is from providers of cheap laborers. Africa is at the same spot as India right now, but with significantly better demographics. For example, Nigeria also has a significant and massively growing population whilst having the same GDPpc as India. Just compare Nigeria and India's population pyramids or other statistics.

Globalism is also no longer a given going forward. When world starts to actually decouple, it will start at the low-skill end since those will be the easiest to replace. That spells further doom to attempts to use manufacturing to jump-start their rise to middle-income economies.

There's more to be said, but no matter how you look at it, things don't look good for India's future at all. Perhaps they could tackle all these problems, but their track record leaves me pessimistic.
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Objectively speaking or asking, how far ahead is Indian Navy over the PLAN? according to this Indian expert, PLAN has many years before it can catch up with the Indian Navy. What's the basis of this extraordinary claim other than perhaps an Indian man, is obviously going to tout Indian Navy especially over the hapless backwards China. After all, India is already X, Y, Z, according to this fella and her many proud Indians.


Indian Navy designed everything it has according to the same expert, with the rest of retired General officers and Admiral nodding their head in agreement. So @Maikeru @Aval and others here, have you seen any PLA officers retired or otherwise made such boisterous, bold claims that flatly stated Chinese X,Y,Z are so and so much better than the Americans? I am asking this question as a way to point out why sometimes I get overly defensive when ask with certain amusement questions that appear as if trying to remind us not to underestimate country A, B, C, when I can't for the life of me remember the last time a prominent retired PLA officer made such bold claims or the Chinese government expressing bellicose statements as well as mocking X,Y,Z, countries for their supposed deficiencies and weakness against the PLA military force that's the bestest in the universe. The difference between China and India is with the latter's penchant for making bold claims that have almost never came close to fruition. While the former values of hiding one's strength while biding for time...That strategy has only been relaxed when China's clear ascendance and firm rank as the 2nd largest economy in the world was duly cemented.

 
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Objectively speaking or asking, how far ahead is Indian Navy over the PLAN? according to this Indian expert, PLAN has many years before it can catch up with the Indian Navy. What's the basis of this extraordinary claim other than perhaps an Indian man, is obviously going to tout Indian Navy especially over the hapless backwards China. After all, India is already X, Y, Z, according to this fella and her many proud Indians.


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Is their navy that much better? Have they stopped using harpoon launchers to send resupply lines between two naval ships?
 

Temstar

Brigadier
Registered Member
when I can't for the life of me remember the last time a prominent retired PLA officer made such bold claims or the Chinese government expressing bellicose statements as well as mocking X,Y,Z, countries for their supposed deficiencies and weakness against the PLA military force that's the bestest in the universe.
I think these days there's a new rule saying retired PLA officers can't talk about PLA too much and in particular can't be seen doing it commercially for views. Hence why people like Zhang Zhaozhong have disappeared from public view.

However prior to this rule Zhang Zhaozhong would do the exact opposite, resulting in famous memes like
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siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I think these days there's a new rule saying retired PLA officers can't talk about PLA too much and in particular can't be seen doing it commercially for views. Hence why people like Zhang Zhaozhong have disappeared from public view.

However prior to this rule Zhang Zhaozhong would do the exact opposite, resulting in famous memes like
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Indeed. I think the ban came after the General Ji Yinan inadvertently leaked the whole situation in Galwan during a public talk show.
 
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