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berserk

Junior Member
Registered Member
The HQ-9 and Barak-8 aren't comparable. Look at the difference.

HQ-9
Weight: 1300kg
Range: 200km-300km
Speed: Mach 4.2

Barak-8
Weight: 275kg
Range: 100km
Speed: Mach 2

The Barak-8 is a smaller medium-range SAM, which is really SLOW.
The HQ-9 is a long-range SAM which is FAST.

It means a Flanker (at Mach 2.5) can outrun a Barak-8, but not a HQ-9.
Barack-8 is not slow.. it's a dual pulse motor missile with terminal speed of more than Mach 7 and take that Mach 2.5 no. with pinch of salt...I assure you it's much higher than that. ;)
the dual-pulse motor fired for a second time. This increased the interceptor’s velocity up to Mach 5-7, enabling it to manoeuvre sharply in tandem with the target’s evasive zigzags.
HQ-9 ability against modern Maneuvering missiles is limited...It's a good anti aircraft system though no doubt.
 

berserk

Junior Member
Registered Member
A Closer Look At DRDO’s New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile.

With the Indian Air force (IAF) looking to seriously enhance its standoff strike capabilities, there is a newfound emphasis on the creation of air to surface missiles (ASMs) for varying roles by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO). If we keep aside the air-launched version of the Indo-Russian Brahmos, the most advanced indigenous ASM in terms of development is the so called New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (NGARM) being developed by DRDO’s Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), which is India’s oldest missile laboratory. As its name suggests, NGARM is meant to be used to engage enemy radar sites and communications nodes emitting at radio frequencies (RF) with precision. It would be worthwhile to take a brief look at this system which was showcased in a video released by the IAF on the occasion of its 85th anniversary in 2017.



Passive Homing
NGARM was sanctioned for development in 2012 at a cost of Rs 317.20 crores with a project completion date (PDC) of December 2017. However, that PDC has been extended according to DRDO sources and developmental trials are still underway. Like most other anti-radiation missiles (ARMs), NGARM’s primary guidance system is an on-board passive homing head (PHH) with broadband capability, which allows it to discriminate and lock on to a target of interest among a number of emitters available in its field-of-view (FoV).

NGARM-PHH-e1524138813763.jpg
Image 1: Location of the PHH on NGARM. Source: DLRL Brochure distributed at DefexpoIndia 2018

This 2-D PHH has been developed by DRDO’s Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) and can detect RF emissions from up to a 100 km away. DLRL’s PHH, according to the brochure/flyer, operates in the D-J frequency band and has a wider FoV than legacy PHH’s used on imported systems. It also has a compact front-end owing to the use of monolithic microwave integrated circuit (MMIC) technology.



PHH-new.jpg

Image 2: Low Band and High Band elements of the PHH. Source: DLRL Brochure distributed at DefexpoIndia 2018

The PHH of course comes into play when the target is actually emitting. In legacy systems, a memory based autopilot using purely inertial guidance would typically keep the missile on an intercept trajectory towards the last known location of an emitter as detected by the PHH, once the target had stopped emitting. The actual success rate of such systems against relocatable emitters as well as those that were manned by well-trained crews maintaining strict discipline with respect to the duration of emission was very low. It was only with the advent of on-board inertial navigation systems (INSs) that could use updates from a global positioning system (GPS) to remove accumulated errors, that the success rate of ARMs showed significant improvement. NGARM, of course, has an on-board INS that can receive multi-constellation updates.


But what promises to make NGARM a truly contemporary system, is the fact that it could possibly be equipped with a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker in the future, which one could speculate operates in the W- band for the endgame. This would very much be in tune with Western trends towards the use of terminal guidance on ARMs to counter emitter shutdowns. MMW-based terminal guidance means that by simply shutting down their radars quickly or by changing position and/or using decoys, enemy operators do not ensure the survivability of their systems. A good MMW seeker head should be able to discriminate between decoys and actual targets and also locate emitters that have packed up and are on the move within an arc of a few km.



To make the fullest use of its terminal homing capability, NGARM is propelled by a dual-pulse solid rocket motor built by Premier Explosives Limited (PEL) under transfer of technology from DRDO’s High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL), that allows
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The dual-pulse propulsion (DPP) scheme is an outgrowth of the work done by DRDO’s missile complex and Premier Electronics Limited (PEL) for the long range surface to air missile (LRSAM) project, which is the first system for which DRDO has fielded a DPP motor. For NGARM, a DPP motor will allow it to reduce the reaction time that enemy mobile radars will have once they have been targeted during the close-in stage. Indeed, the combination of MMW-based terminal guidance and the DPP scheme certainly holds the potential for NGARM to become a truly lethal system for enemy radars.

The dual-pulse propulsion (DPP) scheme is an outgrowth of the work done by DRDO’s missile complex and Premier Electronics Limited (PEL) for the long range surface to air missile (LRSAM) project, which is the first system for which DRDO has fielded a DPP motor. For NGARM, a DPP motor will allow it to reduce the reaction time that enemy mobile radars will have once they have been targeted during the close-in stage. Indeed, the combination of MMW-based terminal guidance and the DPP scheme certainly holds the potential for NGARM to become a truly lethal system for enemy radars.

HEMRL-LRSAM-1.jpg
Representative Image: Dual Pulse Propulsion Scheme For the LRSAM. Source: HEMRL Brochure distributed at DefexpoIndia 2018

The imaging capability of its seeker will also help NGARM attack the most vulnerable parts of radar systems such as the antenna etc, by using the target’s characteristics available on the database of the missile’s on-board processor (OBP).The fact that NGARM uses a laser proximity fuze (LPF) for detonating its warhead (which is of pre-fragmented type and is specifically designed to attack key radar parts) is also indicative of a desire to fully exploit the imaging capability of its terminal guidance scheme to accurately target the most vulnerable parts of an enemy emitter.


Status

Some earlier reports suggesting that the IAF was concerned about the weight of NGARM as compared to imported systems and was therefore not too keen on it, have been proven to be unfounded. NGARM has successfully cleared both captive flight trials (CFTs) as well drop flight trials (DFTs) from Station 8 of an IAF Su-30 MKI whose AKU-58 launcher was modified to receive the NGARM. Here are clippings from those trials as shown on the IAF’s 85th Anniversary Video:
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Source: IAF 85th Anniversary Video

The first lot of CFTs, held in May 2016, were done with the objective of ‘proving mechanical integration aspects of the missile to SU-30MkI for the carriage envelope conditions’, according to DRDO. DRDO also says that ‘The post flight data analysis has shown that all the structural design parameters were within the predicted bounds and based on the results, NGARM is cleared for carriage conditions at station 8 on Su-30MKI’. Moreover, the DFT conducted during December 2016, from Air Force Station Kalaikunda proved that NGARM could be safely released from Station 8 of an IAF Su-30 MKI. This DFT saw NGARM being released from a Su-30 MKI flying at an altitude of 6.5 km and a speed of 0.8 Mach. As on date, NGARM is also being qualified for carriage and subsequent separation release with Station numbers 5,6 and 7 on two Su-30 MKI being used for this purpose.



Though it is primarily meant for carriage by the IAF’s Su-30 MKI, the missile will also be compatible with the Mirage 2000 TI and Jaguar. As far as the missile itself is concerned, laboratory test trials with NGARM’s radome for selected frequencies have been completed and the static firing of its rocket motors at sea-level conditions has also been done. As such, NGARM is headed for powered flight trials later this year once all residual CFTs and DFTs are complete.





Saurav Jha is the Editor-in-Chief of Delhi Defence Review. Follow him on Twitter @SJha1618

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Barack-8 is not slow.. it's a dual pulse motor missile with terminal speed of more than Mach 7 and take that Mach 2.5 no. with pinch of salt...I assure you it's much higher than that. ;)

The Mach 2 speed of the Barak-8 is SLOW.

A Flanker should still be able to fly fast fast enough so it can outrun a Barak-8.
And stay out of range, even with the Barak-8 terminal second stage.

HQ-9 ability against modern Maneuvering missiles is limited...It's a good anti aircraft system though no doubt.

The HQ-9 is primarily designed for anti-aircraft at long-range (up to 300km)
It makes no sense to use expensive long-range HQ-9s against cheap incoming missiles.

If you want to shoot down incoming missiles, it's better to use cheaper medium-range SAMs like the Barak-8 or the HQ-16 instead.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The HQ-9's terminal velocity in third boost pulse phase is Mach 25. Higher than Barak 8's Mach 7 terminal speed. If we're going to be making numbers up, why not go nuts.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I didn't started it....as for PLA capabilities
Claiming that they are hiding some kind of wonder weapon is simply a joke to laugh at ....I will take my word back on J 20 given it has a better potential in long run than SU 57 for now at least ;) But will Chinese deliver is a different thing all together and for K 6 it is still more than a decade away at minimum...and real challenge for us in long is propulsion and russian assistance is very much expected. :)

Pardon to add, but I never claimed, China would "hide some kind of wonder weapon"; it is only a comparison of what is flying or sailing operationally and what is not:

- Whereas in China the J-10 - which in fact started life out of a similar requirement to the Tejas, namely to replace the J-7/MiG-21 - is flying in several hundreds already since decades, India is still struggling to bring the Tejas into operational service in a form, the IAF wanted.
- whereas in India again and again present models of yet another more advanced Tejas variant - now as an enlarged MWF (former Tejas Mk. 2) and as the Orca for the Navy as a twin-engined development - in China the J-20 is already in frontline service and the J-35 or whatever it will be named close to being unveiled.
- whereas the Type 002 carrier entered service, the IAC-1 Vikrant is still waiting for its first test even if it was much earlier in the water.

... shall I continue??


@Deino I don't have any personal grudge or hate against Chinese people, most Indians don't even care.....India , China relations have improved despite Chinese conning us big time. it's Chinese establishment which need to decide what they want in long run....I think there will be give and take, compromises on both sides but if Chinese think they can roll over us by themselves or using Pakistan.. they are living in la la land. Here is a good video by previous NSA on India China relations and where we are heading.

Me neither and I think most Chinese have even less "any personal grudge or hate against Indian people, most Chinese don't even care".
However - and that is at least my observation as a foreigner, who is following both country's developments and progress since years - my experience tells me otherwise: Most Indians are overhyping their own achievements, are boasting any expected "Will have" and diminish everything from China with exactly these statements: "Our's will be better in a few years and yours is surely only vaporware, crap, shitty copied or whatever"!

But if it is indeed "only vaporware, crap, shitty copied or whatever", so why then so much fear especially on the Indian Northern - or Chinese Southern - border?

Brest,
Andreas/Deino
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
India China relations have cooled a lot since 2016 and 2017. India is beginning to seem like it is going to become a relatively independent nation as opposed to part of a China encirclement. However it remains that Indian troll farms are still heavily invested in lying about Chinese related issues online. Not just military forums but anything and everything political. Chinese wumao and government paid trolls if they exist seem to only work on monitoring issues within Chinese borders. I have yet to see English speaking Chinese trolls while Indian and Russian paid ones are quite apparent... you can tell based on the content they post and where they post.

I do believe China wants to normalise relations with India and even eventually build positive ones. Of course issues relating to border disputes and Pakistan do weigh in very heavily on that front. Who knows what the future will hold. Indian chauvinists now however are more than happy to do China bashing wherever and whenever there is opportunity. Chinese chauvinists rarely if ever comment or weigh in on anything Indian except maybe in places like here and PDF. In contrast, check any Indian defence forum and even outside it. Dozens of pages relating to Chinese stuff with dozens more individuals commenting. This page is mostly Berserk posting updates with almost no commentary or posting outside of responses to inaccuracies and outrageously false claims. Who cares more??
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Barack-8 is not slow.. it's a dual pulse motor missile with terminal speed of more than Mach 7 and take that Mach 2.5 no. with pinch of salt...I assure you it's much higher than that. ;)

HQ-9 ability against modern Maneuvering missiles is limited...It's a good anti aircraft system though no doubt.

you have no slight clues what you are talking about ... just stop it, you are a big embarrassment to India
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Guys ... please stay polite and no offence regardless all differences
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Smash in Tibet? Please PLAAF's J-11s and J-10s alone can handle all of IAF and their mock up plastic NGRAMs. Su-30MKIs get pushed back by 30 year old F-16s and block 1 JF-17s. Against PLAAF? Yeah buddy no fear at all lol.
 
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