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Xsizor said:

Certainly DCNS as the french has experience in CATOBAR nuclear powered flat tops

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The last carrier the DCNS built was in the 1980s might as well say the Russians or Ukraine.
The last French carrier program was a variant of the Queen Elizabeth class that was never built. Out side of that its notional not even on paper. The CDG is 30+ Years out of date and anyone who helped build it is retired. They have been building LHD Mistral class but that is not a super carrier. The British experience is fresh.

Xsizor said:

Wouldn't trust americans to part with critical technology tho ( with senate approvals,conditions attached and all that)

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India has been. Closer to the US than Pakistan of late. Any military exporter has restrictions on the use of their products. The US restrictions are over stated and French export is becoming more complicated as they integrate programs with Germany who has some of the most extreme restrictions.
Additionally a French carrier design would use an American EMALS or cat. The CDG does today. Unless they went STOBAR.
So go French hello US, go BAE Hello US, Go Russian stuck with Mig.

Xsizor said:

So French it

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No French it's not. Again DCNS hasn't built a carrier in 30+ Years. If the Indians wanted an LHA or LHD okay good to go. But a CV nope. BAE is the best game.
Dassault Rafale seems the best bet on fighter although India is getting pitched the Boeing F/A18 super hornet for another program might be funny if both got bought and decked on a future carrier.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

The last carrier the DCNS built was in the 1980s might as well say the Russians or Ukraine.
The last French carrier program was a variant of the Queen Elizabeth class that was never built. Out side of that its notional not even on paper. The CDG is 30+ Years out of date and anyone who helped build it is retired. They have been building LHD Mistral class but that is not a super carrier. The British experience is fresh.

India has been. Closer to the US than Pakistan of late. Any military exporter has restrictions on the use of their products. The US restrictions are over stated and French export is becoming more complicated as they integrate programs with Germany who has some of the most extreme restrictions.
Additionally a French carrier design would use an American EMALS or cat. The CDG does today. Unless they went STOBAR.
So go French hello US, go BAE Hello US, Go Russian stuck with Mig.

No French it's not. Again DCNS hasn't built a carrier in 30+ Years. If the Indians wanted an LHA or LHD okay good to go. But a CV nope. BAE is the best game.
Dassault Rafale seems the best bet on fighter although India is getting pitched the Boeing F/A18 super hornet for another program might be funny if both got bought and decked on a future carrier.

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Point noted regarding the french experience in Nuclear powered flat tops. They sure have 30 years of gap.
"Any military exporter has restrictions..." Yes,but to compare US with just another military exporter is simply wrong. US restrictions are extreme so much so that it can be seen as a breach of soveriegnity.

Xsizor said:

Point noted regarding the french experience in Nuclear powered flat tops. They sure have 30 years of gap

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Not just Nuclear ANY!
They have been building LHDs. Helicopter carriers with an amphibious ramp. That's a different ball game than a full size super carrier. Lots of countries have LHA LBS and LHD Spain, Italy, Australia, Japan.
What India is looking for for the French was last built in 1960. With the Foch
The Charles de Gaulle sucessded that class with nuclear power, but like the Russians when the French pull her from service they have no carriers. The French industry is besides it's self in even if it could build a new carrier.
Betting in the French is betting on a wild card.

Xsizor said:

.
Any military exporter has restrictions..." Yes,but to compare US with just another military exporter is simply wrong. US restrictions are extreme so much so that it can be seen as a breach of soveriegnity.

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Bull. Even in the recent Indian Pakistan brawl the degree of limitations is limited.
Oh but S400. Yeah S400 block because part of that is systems Intigration that means having the F35 talk to the S400 missile.

So again I call bull on that. But I also point out that if India wants EMALS or Catapult launched they have to go to the U.S.
If they want to get the most of a carrier the French can give them the fighters but not the cats. The French can maybe, maybe design a hull. But when they want an AEW the French buy American.

But if you want to keep in that line India got CH47 not from Russia but the US, AH64E not from Russia the US. C17 Not from Russia the US, KC130J not from Russia the US. P8 Posidon Not from Russia the U.S.. Harpoon missiles and Torpedos for those Posidesns from the US.
The Indias seem like they feel they can live with such restrictions.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Not just Nuclear ANY!
They have been building LHDs. Helicopter carriers with an amphibious ramp. That's a different ball game than a full size super carrier. Lots of countries have LHA LBS and LHD Spain, Italy, Australia, Japan.
What India is looking for for the French was last built in 1960. With the Foch
The Charles de Gaulle sucessded that class with nuclear power, but like the Russians when the French pull her from service they have no carriers. The French industry is besides it's self in even if it could build a new carrier.
Betting in the French is betting on a wild card.

Bull. Even in the recent Indian Pakistan brawl the degree of limitations is limited.
Oh but S400. Yeah S400 block because part of that is systems Intigration that means having the F35 talk to the S400 missile.

So again I call bull on that. But I also point out that if India wants EMALS or Catapult launched they have to go to the U.S.

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If they want to get the most of a carrier the French can give them the fighters but not the cats. The French can maybe, maybe design a hull. But when they want an AEW the French buy American.

But if you want to keep in that line India got CH47 not from Russia but the US, AH64E not from Russia the US. C17 Not from Russia the US, KC130J not from Russia the US. P8 Posidon Not from Russia the U.S.. Harpoon missiles and Torpedos for those Posidesns from the US.
The Indias seem like they feel they can live with such restrictions.

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Easy there. You are getting too excited. I'm not here to listen to some jingoistic preacher glorifying their nation’s weapon systems and the consideration their oh-so-glorious nation has for the "lesser'' nations. This is realpolitiks. India chooses what it wants from others and avoids when it can. To say that US has aligned itself with India and India has bought into that is absurdity. Russia has sold Akula class SSN to India. India is in the process of buying another Akula class from Russia. The same is for the S400 deal that India has finalized with the Russians. (Turkey is turkey. India is India.) We are talking about nuclear submarines here. I can’t find any US allies negotiating with Russia for nuclear submarines.

Russia helps India with the design of its submarine nuclear reactors. Not to mention the ongoing cooperation regarding Brahmos missiles and Sukhoi flankers. India is forced to buy from US regarding ASW platforms ( P8I- poseidon, SeaHawks etc) as competitive platforms aren’t available from Russia. The same is the case for Chinook helicopters( the chinooks have a better altitude performance and “handling” of payload compared to the Russian Mi-26. In many other departments, the Mi-26 reigns supreme. The same is the case for EMALS.

EMALS without nuclear power to feed it would be a breakthrough altogether and India is in no shape to pull one off. Since India isn’t looking for a nuclear powered carrier, the EMALS offer could only be seen as a negotiation tool. (If you consider our deal regarding xyz, then we will help you with “EMALS”!! ) US is as much inexperienced in EMALS on a non nuclear powered ship as the French would be regarding a nuclear powered CATAPULT.

To rub it in better, S400 is better than anything the US has to offer. US tomahawks are mediocre and that is why India went with Russia regarding cruise missiles. Don’t you get it? It has nothing to do with “alliance” or the perceived notion of it. It is simply what a non aligned nation would do regarding anything related to national security. “ Keep all options open, make no enemies, consider what is best for you”.

All the weapons systems that you mentioned offer limited use-case and are less critical compared to … fighter jets, submarines etc. I am very sure that no superHornets or F-16 will ever get picked by india. The priority will always be for Russians and then the French (since they aren’t policing the world and their considerations would be money and diplomacy, first and foremost) India is in the process of upgrading the Brahmos ( for which US has no equivalent of, like in many other weapon systems) with Russia. India buys gas turbines from Zorya-Mashproekt (Ukraine) as well as the US ( LM2500). The list goes on.

Hull making is what India has learned after much support from Russia. The French can help them with other subsystems including a catapult( steam). Elta( IL) or Thales (FR) would help with the AESA arrays. The Russian Migs would be still in consideration even when India talks about the French Rafale-M ( as Mig-29K is already operating on Indian carriers)

My point stands- US is one of the most unreliable partners any nation with concerns about sovereignty and independent foreign policy can have. India would look into US products with much concern and would make a purchase only if it is clear that it is not going to be rollercoaster ride afterwards.

First, India has shown considerable disgust with the state and quality of the Migs they have procured from Russia for their carriers.

Second as I have pointed out. The French although they have radar and systems lack any indigenous Launching systems. As do the Russians. Your insistence that they can help with such is fantasy. As their own carriers use American subsystems for such. They have also been looking at EMALS for there potential future carriers.

Third yes I know that the Indians take from around the world. However your claim, That the US restrictions are somehow not something that India can work with is proven false by the presence of major American made systems. It's Opinion based.

Fourth, although India does partner for Russian systems by your own admission they also do for Isreali, French and American. In this case though American would be the subsystem.

Fifth. Russia has no Carrier designs newer than 1990, the U.S. doesn't export carriers but does subsystems. France has one design, the British design; That they licenced for PA2. Which is the heart of what I am talking about. BAE is the only carrier builder who has produced a new full sized carrier with a conventional power system in the last decade outside of the Chinese. And we both should know that the Indians are about as likely to get a carrier from them as Modi to be crowned Queen of Mars. As such India did ask The British if they were interested and based on the facts BAE is the most Practical bid for India to get it's Second indigenous carrier before 2030. The Queen Elizabeth class was designed to be configured not just as a jump carrier but also as a Launch assisted and arrested landing carrier using the US EMALS system.

I am stating facts. Not jingoism FACT.

timepass said:

Russia’s Response To India’s ASAT Missile Test Wasn’t What New Delhi Expected...

Russia’s Response To India’s ASAT Missile Test Wasn’t What New Delhi Expected ...

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The P5 does not want to enlarge their club even though they may be at odds with one another. The 5 were the ones who got the chairs because of WWII, they would rather that arrangement being dismantled by outside force through a war than letting in new members just to displace them, NO MATTER how new comers play "buddying up" with them. The bottom line is whoever the new comer is, the order on the power ladder is going to change, why make it easier for any outsider?

Short of fighter planes, IAF eyes 21 MiG-29 jets and air-defence aircraft....



Desperately short of fighters, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is moving the government to buy an additional 21 Russian-made MiG -29 ground attack and air-defence aircraft, a senior official with knowledge of the development said.

IAF needs a minimum of 42 squadrons [each comprising 16 -18 fighters], but has only 30. More squadrons will be decommissioned in the coming months. India is expected to get first Rafale fighter jets — the French-made medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) — in September 2019.

The Indian Air Force already has three squadrons of MiG-29. All three are positioned along the western borders. The Indian Navy too uses the naval version of the MiG-29 fighters. They are positioned on the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya.

Earlier, in February 2019, a team of senior Indian Air Force officials rushed to Russia to examine the fleet of the MiG 29 fighters.

“The airframes are ready and Russia has promised to deliver all 21 fighters within 18 months,” the senior IAF official who asked not to be named said.

“The air-frames are ready and available in Russia.”

The 21 MiG -29 are upgraded with a more effective radar system, controls, and avionics systems, dorsal and wing tanks, and air-to-air refueling making the aircraft 4.5 generation fighters — the ones that first appeared on the scene between 1990 and 2000. It costs Rs 285-300 crore per fighter. “The price is extremely competitive,” another senior defence ministry official said. “The endurance of the aircraft is now nearly 5 hours with the additional fuel tanks.”

The Indian Air Force is also flagging its MiG-29 repair and maintenance facility, based in Ozar, Nashik, to the government as one of the positives.

“We do not need to set up a fresh facility to maintain the fighters. In addition, the Ozar facility has ensured that at least 75% of the fleet is always available for operational deployment,” the second official said.

“Importantly, the IAF already has crew and maintenance staff trained. Induction of the fighters will not require a fresh effort,” the official added.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

First, India has shown considerable disgust with the state and quality of the Migs they have procured from Russia for their carriers.

Third yes I know that the Indians take from around the world. However your claim, That the US restrictions are somehow not something that India can work with is proven false by the presence of major American made systems. It's Opinion based.

I am stating facts. Not jingoism FACT.

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First, that is a nice exaggeration. It is not like F-18s offer a better deal.
Second, your opinion is India can work with US restrictions. No.It can't. Nice try however. India smells US restrictions a mile away and steers clear of jumping into that ditch. India, as i've mentioned, ensures that it doesn't involve itself with extremely critical US tech. There are NO major US made systems adopted by India. Feel free to list any MAJOR systems.

Third, US does not have any experience with EMALS atop a non nuclear powered ship. Did you miss it or are you pretending that you didn't read it?
You are stating irrelevant facts. EMALS is a negotiation tool. US simply sides with India due to the current geopolitical climate- China and all that. India knows this and sees US for what it is - a fickle opportunist. Wait, let me articulate it better- India sees US as playing good realpolitik. India is playing the same thing.

Is India going to struggle with the Mig-29K with reliability concerns? Yes. Anything better than getting bogged down by the Anglo MIC. A wannabe global power vs a vassal state. India has already made the choice when the nation was born.

India has nasty experience with a US "gift" -the Austin class Amphibious transport dock- INS jalshwa. India, i hope, learned well from that experience. And it sure did.

Britain's offer is going to be just that. An offer. India learned Soviet style shipbuilding and would have to grind atleast a decade to build a Queen Eliz class ship- without the twin islands, with catapult, EMALS + non nuclear powered. If India accepts the UK offer then it'd mean that it has to interest itself with the UK Military Industrial complex and by extension the US MIC.

What India would do is to wait for the Brexit effects to set in and then try to extract a good deal from the UK. That good deal would involve buying certain closed "subsystems" package. If I were India,I'd look at the Artisan naval radar. A rolce royce assistance in Gas turbines? Attractive! India knows that uk is there before the table in the first place because of Brexit. I am very sure UK would never offer India the design or anything remotely related if the Brexit crisis didn't happen.

Didn't know French used US catapult. Thanks for that info. Guess that means India would develop a catapult it's own or go for assistance in joint development with the Russians/French/ US. There is not going to be a off-the-shelf purchase. It's risky business.

Xsizor said:

First, that is a nice exaggeration.

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Based off Indian CAG reports.

Xsizor said:

Second, your opinion is India can work with US restrictions. No.It can't. Nice try however. India smells US restrictions

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No that is Your opinion.

The fact that India has procured American systems debunks that. Particularly the P8 as they didn't just buy it they tailored the package to their wants.

Xsizor said:

Third, US does not have any experience with EMALS atop a non nuclear powered ship

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Straw man argument. No one anywhere has. The US is the first to trail they system on ANY SHIP, EVER!!

The rest is just pure opinion and bunk.

timepass said:

'A terrible, terrible thing': NASA said India's satellite destruction created so much space junk it now threatens the safety of the International Space Station...

NASA said India's satellite destruction created so much space junk it now threatens the safety of the International Space Station ..

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A rather tepid response nonetheless compared with the aftermath of the 2007 Chinese test. Media was crying about that one for over ten years.