Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

So the RAF's official reaction is dismissed out of hand now?

Contrary to what BR thinks, the fact that the RAF has said their Typhoons "had one hand tied behind their back" would support the suspicion myself and others have had that ROE might have influenced the results.

Personally, I find all the referencing to how people were supposed to have reacted to earlier exercise results, and the insinuation such commentary carries, distasteful.

People are not sceptical about the claimed results because it was the IAF that came out on top, people are sceptical because of the incredibly one-sided nature of the claimed outcome.

A general rule of thumb that I normally apply, which seldom have steered me wrong, is that if something looks too good to be true, it almost always is.

I personally think the journalist who wrote the original piece overegged the cake, and made claims that made most neutral observers instantly suspicious. Or, maybe the journalist was blameless, and it was the military and political top brass who agreed the ROE who either had an agenda they wanted to promote, or had very specific scenarios they wanted to test and examine, which resulted the ROEs that produced results so far from what most neutral observers would expect.

plawolf said:

Contrary to what BR thinks, the fact that the RAF has said their Typhoons "had one hand tied behind their back" would support the suspicion myself and others have had that ROE might have influenced the results.

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so the MKI fought with 4 hands...
so the indians exposed all their capabilities to the RAF ????
holding nothing back???
telling them all their tactics???


about distasteful

i find that people saying that the IAF is crowing distasteful too,
when they said nothing of that sort about that RAF Air Marshall .
which riled me

i find this distasteful as well

Dalton also indicated that the IAF inventory of Sukhois, MiGs and Mirages are no match to the Typhoons.

"Nothing that India has got is anything anywhere near this (the Typhoon). I would say that absolutely. This airplane is phenomenally different in both performance and technology in anything they (IAF) got right now," he said.

But, he added, it was not criticism, as Typhoon is the product of next generation technology.

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you don't think that the IAF have one hand hand behind their backs in the previous questions.




believe what you like

i agree to disagree.

but,this is my last on this

There is no doubt that the SU-30MKIs acquitted themselves well.

But we have to listen to both sides.

Fighter pilots and their squadron mates, by definition are very hard charging, completely dedicated to their aircraft, type of people. If it part of the mentality that ends up making them good pilots.

But there is also no doubt that both aircraft are very good, and it is highly doubtful that the engagements were as lopsided as the initial press reports from India indicate.

The UK pilots are basically saying that those lopsided outcomes being reported are not the way they remembered things.

We will probably never know all of the ROEs or the exact circumstances being tested. Fore example, were there any BVR engagement exercises? Were theyre any high altitude passes allowed? We just do not know.

If we are going to take what the Indian reports indicate at face value...then we have to take what the UK reports say too.

I believe that bnoth are probably right to some extent and that the IAF pilots did very well, but that they also got their clock cleaned in some areas which they clearly are not going to high light to the public. The same is true on the other side.

I believe the SU-30MKIs did far better than some may have expected, particularly in the UK, because of the 2007 experience.

But I also believe that the Typhoon, in a real world combat condition, would seek to engage and defeat the SU-30 MKIs from well outside the SU-30s comfort zone and vice versa. In the real world, which aircraft can do that the most effectively is going to win.

I personally believe, if two groups of those aircraft are coming at each other from a distance, the Typhoon probably has the best capability of taking the first shots from their position of strength. But that presumes that the Typhoons are high and find the SU-30s in time to do so.

In the end, I think we can safely say that the SU-30 MKIs did very well. I think it also safe to say that they probably did better than the RAF expected they would do.

For my part, I am happy to leave it at that .

plawolf said:

So the RAF's official reaction is dismissed out of hand now?

Contrary to what BR thinks, the fact that the RAF has said their Typhoons "had one hand tied behind their back" would support the suspicion myself and others have had that ROE might have influenced the results.

Personally, I find all the referencing to how people were supposed to have reacted to earlier exercise results, and the insinuation such commentary carries, distasteful.

People are not sceptical about the claimed results because it was the IAF that came out on top, people are sceptical because of the incredibly one-sided nature of the claimed outcome.

A general rule of thumb that I normally apply, which seldom have steered me wrong, is that if something looks too good to be true, it almost always is.

I personally think the journalist who wrote the original piece overegged the cake, and made claims that made most neutral observers instantly suspicious. Or, maybe the journalist was blameless, and it was the military and political top brass who agreed the ROE who either had an agenda they wanted to promote, or had very specific scenarios they wanted to test and examine, which resulted the ROEs that produced results so far from what most neutral observers would expect.

Click to expand...

Well gents, this is real Kombat here on the Sino Defense Forum, just like last nights RepubliKan presidential debates, who won depends on who you ask? Obviously the Indian side came to win, as per Mr. Aksha's comments, they felt a more than a little "dissed" the last time?? The Brits were prolly told to keep their own counsel here, which they seem to have done.

If the MKIs are that good? the Indians "will tell the French what to do with their Rafaels", why would you buy an airplane that is inferior to what you can build yourself?? you wouldn't, and neither will the Indian gov or Air Force. So if the Indians continue to try to purchase Rafaels, or if they renew their interest in the Typhoon, its only logical to infer by that that Rafael has some potent capabilities that would add to the force multiplier, and are indeed extremely capable?

aksha said:

so the MKI fought with 4 hands...
so the indians exposed all their capabilities to the RAF ????
holding nothing back???
telling them all their tactics???


about distasteful

i find that people saying that the IAF is crowing distasteful too,
when they said nothing of that sort about that RAF Air Marshall .
which riled me

i find this distasteful as well


you don't think that the IAF have one hand hand behind their backs in the previous questions.




believe what you like

i agree to disagree.

but,this is my last on this

Click to expand...

I'm not tagging you to get you going bubba, I find you one of the most honest and respectful posters on this forum, in fact I was a little surprised to get your honest take here, but I do understand. Each of us fly their kolors, and I respect you for that, I am most certainly proud of the USA, and I hope they roll me up in the flag and bury me, I love my country that much!

Let me say for one, that one of my Indian friends is my most faithful friend,were I to call him and request anything, he would do almost anything to make sure that I got what I wanted, needed, and desired?

So to you brother Aksha, I am deeply bowing and begging your pardon brother? I know we all "crow" a little bit, and this was your time, and we tried to take away your joy? No doubt the Indians and Brits in the exercise enjoyed good fellowship and commaraderie, and we should do the same.

Let me say that I love you as a brother, and I pray that I, nor our other brothers "crowing" or fact checking will be hurtful to you, and it seems that it may have been so. Let me say for the record that everyone went away from this exercise with mutual respect and admiration, and we as brothers should desire no less from one another, so you my brother have my very heartfelt and sincere apology, feel free to PM me anytime that you feel I may be riding my "high horse". your servant in Christ, Air Force Brat

@Air Force Brat ,i apologise as well,
i shouldn't have lost my temper the way i did ,
nor should i have been so rude,or so blunt
hoping you will forgive me
i apologise for being disrespective of the RAF , and the mods can remove my posts if they feel the need.

India cancels the program MMRCA fighter plane in which he had chosen the Rafale. New competition in sight

(defensa.com) After years of tensions between the Indian government and the French manufacturer Dassault Aviation and that in April it had reached an agreement on direct sale of 36 Rafale fighter jets, the Indian government has decided not to proceed with the program Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and cancel the agreement with French aircraft manufacturer. The negotiations, which resulted in the direct sale of 36 aircraft, then seemed a boost to the program, which ultimately concluded shelved a program giving delayed since January 2012 chose the Rafale as the winner


The contract involved the sale of 126 fighters with significant participation of Indian manufacturing industry. The distribution of the workload to Indian companies as well as the commitment to ensure quality even Dassault aircraft manufactured in India, along with the high cost seem to be the cause of the cancellation. Before, some changing requirements had lengthened the selection process for years. Then this would be the first export contract for French combat aircraft, however, they have been the recent orders from Egypt and Qatar who have secured the future of the aircraft at the moment.

The Air Force India, however, faces the same problem that prompted the MMRCA program: the necessary replacement of veteran fighters Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar to those who have less than a decade of life. It is therefore expected that in a short time starting a new program to replace these aircraft are expected to attend the competitors of the Rafale in 2012, and it is unclear if even the Rafale own again. Among the likely contenders are the F-16 and Lockheed Martin F / A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium, the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Mig-35, the latest version of MiG-29 Russian , all of them adapted to the requirements of the country and with local partners hand.


If the required MMRCA 126 aircraft and France will supply 36 Rafales, it is expected that at least the acquisition of 90 aircraft worth around 30,000 million dollars in the process from the outset that the local industry will participate according to the prevailing motto tendered "Make in India "that governs all defense procurement in that country.

Link:


Back to bottling my Grenache

aksha said:

@Air Force Brat ,i apologise as well,
i shouldn't have lost my temper the way i did ,
nor should i have been so rude,or so blunt
hoping you will forgive me
i apologise for being disrespective of the RAF , and the mods can remove my posts if they feel the need.

Click to expand...

No apology needed my brother, each of us have strong feelings of love and service to our country, and I am thankful when brothers fly their flags rather than pretend they do not have those feelings or biases. I have mine, and I make no apology for those, only for my insensitivity to others. Your honesty and faithfulness to this Sino Defense Family is greatly appreciated and has earned you my deepest respect and friendship.

I hope the mods leave these posts, they are a reminder that we all have feelings, and that our brothers have equal feelings.

The IAF has become one of the most respected Air Forces in the world, and I am excited that they will be operating very good equipment, and take the time to fly with the RAF in order to increase our inter-operability. It will take all of us guarding our mutual freedoms to preserve them, and I am hopefull that India and the US will maintain that strong partnership with mutual respect and trust.

No doubt those MK1s were flown very effectively in the WVR scenario, and that takes a lot of Ka-hoona's as it does get very hairy, so good show all around to both the Indian and Brit teams on a very successful exercise!

Miragedriver said:

India cancels the program MMRCA fighter plane in which he had chosen the Rafale. New competition in sight

(defensa.com) After years of tensions between the Indian government and the French manufacturer Dassault Aviation and that in April it had reached an agreement on direct sale of 36 Rafale fighter jets, the Indian government has decided not to proceed with the program Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) and cancel the agreement with French aircraft manufacturer. The negotiations, which resulted in the direct sale of 36 aircraft, then seemed a boost to the program, which ultimately concluded shelved a program giving delayed since January 2012 chose the Rafale as the winner

The contract involved the sale of 126 fighters with significant participation of Indian manufacturing industry. The distribution of the workload to Indian companies as well as the commitment to ensure quality even Dassault aircraft manufactured in India, along with the high cost seem to be the cause of the cancellation. Before, some changing requirements had lengthened the selection process for years. Then this would be the first export contract for French combat aircraft, however, they have been the recent orders from Egypt and Qatar who have secured the future of the aircraft at the moment.

The Air Force India, however, faces the same problem that prompted the MMRCA program: the necessary replacement of veteran fighters Mig-21, Mig-27 and Jaguar to those who have less than a decade of life. It is therefore expected that in a short time starting a new program to replace these aircraft are expected to attend the competitors of the Rafale in 2012, and it is unclear if even the Rafale own again. Among the likely contenders are the F-16 and Lockheed Martin F / A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing, the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium, the Swedish Saab Gripen and the Mig-35, the latest version of MiG-29 Russian , all of them adapted to the requirements of the country and with local partners hand.

If the required MMRCA 126 aircraft and France will supply 36 Rafales, it is expected that at least the acquisition of 90 aircraft worth around 30,000 million dollars in the process from the outset that the local industry will participate according to the prevailing motto tendered "Make in India "that governs all defense procurement in that country.

Link:

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Back to bottling my Grenache

Click to expand...

So, it will be very interesting to see who throws their hat into the ring?

from the above is true , i would say the Mig 35 is coming or perhaps the gripen
but i would put my money on the MIG35 anyway,
perhaps the only aircraft that can defeat the SU35 in its own game.
besides ELTA has offered the 2052 AESA
besides the IAF already operates Mig35

the rafale is already out in this competition , for reasons well known i.e cost
i don't know why agreed to by 36 of them, when they are floating another competiton
perhaps because bilateral relations would be harmed,
perhaps alarmed because of low availability of the SU30 MKI at that time,
now that is being rectified, it could be why the talks are slowing down again.

Reliability has been very good, which is why we only needed to bring four aircraft this time round and, as of late last year and after a decade of development, HAL now has a full thrust-vectoring maintenance facility so we no longer need to send them to Russia for overhaul. In terms of the future, we have an upgrade planned for a better radar (possibly Zhuk AESA) and weapons systems (potentially including full integration of the Novator KS-172 AAM and BrahMos cruise missile), and are looking forward to welcoming the RAF back to India next year.

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if they buy only 36 , it will remain a big mystery,
because just 36 fighters are difficult to maintain in the long run.
what the IAF wants from rafale is SPECTRA

EFT,
I won't comment on much
but they said they will give a 20% discount ,from the original price
if selected
disadvantage is that they have to deal with 4 countries.

the griffin comes cheap for its capability,
it won't drain the IAF coffers
but if they have the same fears about american equipment that they had last time,
the griffin gets a big question mark over its head, because the griffin is still tied to american equipment.
(remember the IAF wanted the LCA Mk2 to use EJ2000 instead of GE414)
there is a powerful gripen lobby within the ex IAF ranks.

if the IAF is willing to forget their fears about american equipment,
then the new upgraded F18 is the best option,
the latest versions are very exciting,they will cover up the weaknesses the IAF will have in electronics

F16 , i don't think it will have much of a chance , because Pakistan already has a version of it.


what adds to the confusion is that ADA will ask a foreign aircraft manufacturer to co-develop the LCA Mk2 according to comments by the Defence Minister. in the parliament.
this could be linked to the MMRCA competition
which brings the Eurocanards closer to the win.

not to mention a few rumours , that say that Mikoyan is offering the MIG1.44
as a 4.5+++ multirole fighter???

we must also remember that the SU35 is also officially on offer to India.
and from what we know the defence minister was quite interested.