Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

I would expect Indians to exaggerate a little, but overall this result is not a surprise . Overall, Typhoon has enormous ITR but it is not better then Su-30 in this regard . It bleeds energy fast and comparing STRs, Su-30 is definitely better. Typhoon has somewhat better thrust-to-weight then Indian Su-30 MKIs (unless they upgraded engines, I think they didn't) but only if Su-30 carries lots of fuel on board (50% full tanks or more) .As I said before, Typhoon pilots would be well advised to avoid dogfights against Flankers.

I think its probably worth noting that the 12-0 (and all other specific details of the exercise) are not direct quotes from any official sources.

They could well all be true, but its not the same as an actual official coming out and saying that, and since those headline phrases are not from official sources, we would want to know how reliable the reporter is in determining how much weight to give those claims.

I guess our Indian/Pakistani friends would be best placed to comment on that.

plawolf said:

I think its probably worth noting that the 12-0 (and all other specific details of the exercise) are not direct quotes from any official sources.

They could well all be true, but its not the same as an actual official coming out and saying that, and since those headline phrases are not from official sources, we would want to know how reliable the reporter is in determining how much weight to give those claims.

I guess our Indian/Pakistani friends would be best placed to comment on that.

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Agreed.

But either way, it is clear that they performed very well.

This is likely to further add nails to the Indian Rafael coffin.

Seeing the SU-30MKI as a viable opponent to other very modern aircraft from major powers, will understandably increase the desire to add more of those aircraft while they wait for the PAKFA.

Jeff Head said:

Agreed.

But either way, it is clear that they performed very well.

This is likely to further add nails to the Indian Rafael coffin.

Seeing the SU-30MKI as a viable opponent to other very modern aircraft from major powers, will understandably increase the desire to add more of those aircraft while they wait for the PAKFA.

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I would not be so quick to mourn the Typhoon and Rafale .

This was only WVR, in BVR, I would expect a very different picture.

In addition, delta canards are optimised for transonic performance. In a real fight, a good Typhoon/Rafale pilot would try to use that to their advantage, whereas a Flanker pilot would be more interested into getting into a medium to low speed turning contest.

This is why details like ROE are important.

If the Typhoons were soundly beaten while playing to their strength is one thing, its anothr if ROE forced them into turning contests a good pilot would generally try to avoid.

good point wolf.
as Brat pointed out during other engagements the outcome was very different a pilot will fight to there Strengths, getting into a turning fight with a Flanker or Fulcrom is not a good idea they were designed as close in fighters. If the ROE forced the Typhoons into that it would have stacked the deck.

I also found it misleading when the story threw in the IRST bit. Typhoon is not a true stealth fighter. Stealthy yes but not stealth it's RCS reduction is more or less the same as any 4.5 gen including the MKI Flankers.
where as this seemed to try and claim it as a important factor against Typhoon. the fact is Typhoon has it's own IRST the Passive Infra-Red Airborne Track Equipment or Pirate ( Gold Deblunes to the would be Swashbuckler who cooked up that one)

plawolf said:

I would not be so quick to mourn the Typhoon and Rafale .

This was only WVR, in BVR, I would expect a very different picture.

In addition, delta canards are optimised for transonic performance. In a real fight, a good Typhoon/Rafale pilot would try to use that to their advantage, whereas a Flanker pilot would be more interested into getting into a medium to low speed turning contest.

This is why details like ROE are important.

If the Typhoons were soundly beaten while playing to their strength is one thing, its anothr if ROE forced them into turning contests a good pilot would generally try to avoid.

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exactly, I would bet my LAST Franklin that in the real world? RAF Typhoon against the MKI, or two MKIs, the Phoon is gonna win, Aircraft Commanders of similar experience. No doubt the MKI is very good at what it does well, but the Typhoon would no doubt stay high and get off the first shot, but they are two very different animals, but I would bet the Phoon has a better avionics package overall?

if you want a neutral article then here goes

every source indicates that the flanker more than held its own against the Typhoon.

Indian air force pilots (IAF) flying their Su-30MKI Flankers provided stiff opposition for a UK Royal Air Force (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoon squadron during air combat maneuvering exercises just ended in the UK. Senior officers from both the IAF and the RAF were unwilling to discuss details, but AIN understands from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that, in close combat, the thrust vector control (TVC) on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon. The IAF is likely to buy another 30or 40 Su-30MKIs from the licensed Indian production line, boosting its fleet to close to300, especially after last week’s formal

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of the RFP for a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

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The Flanker pilots were also able to use their thrust-vectoring control (TVC) “super-maneuverability” capability activated by flipping a switch in the cockpit. One pilot told Aviation Week that they had used the yaw capability of the TVC to remain inside the tight turn radius of the Typhoon in order to keep the Typhoon in missile launch parameters.

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before accusing the IAF of crowing , wasn't it the RAF who gloated first,
about the Typhoon whacking the MKI.

and some of you accepted it lock, stock and barrel.
when the IAF said nothing
i heard none of accuse that RAF officer of crowing, not a bit about one sided news??
even when it was discussed recently,in the aerodynamic discussion thread.



as @b787 will testify


so why the double standards

the MKI won this time ,swallow it

as for the IAF crowing ,
it wasn't the IAF who revealed how the Cope India 2004,where even Mig 21 Bisons managed to best F15's
or the Indradhanush exercise in India when they brought their Tornadoes to Gwalior,and lost horribly

they mumbled something about learning new tactics etc etc

they have never crowed till now,


if you ask me ,why they did now
i would say

the IAF wanted revenge for that very PUBLIC GLOATING ABOUT the 2007.EXERCISES

which is why they send pilots from a frontline squardon,
which is why they revealed their radars in full power,
which is why they send in the most experience SU30 pilot they have( who i dare say evaluated the EFT for the MMRCA )

tehy didn't come for training this time , this time they came to knock the Typhoon out of the sky.

as for the reporter ,
i hope any of you remember that i had given a list of of trusted indian journalists in this very thread itself,when that BS abou PAK FA by Ajai Shukla was circulating around here (which was swallowed lock stock and barrel by some here too).
i gave
Vishnu Som, Saurav Jha, Shiv Aroor, and Ananthakrishnan M


Vishnu Som is a pilot too,
he has flown the MKI ,F16IN (not exactlythe IN, but the desert falcon), Rafale and EFT in double seater versions
and the Mig 35 in its single seat version

he was the only journalist allowed to report the Red Flag 2008 when the MKI visited

He is reliable , knows quite a bit about fighter jets aviation himself

ask him yourself
if you want via Bharat Rakshak, Keypubs, or Twitter.

and another one , again a neutral source

and see this

this suggests that the Flanker beat the Typhoon in its comfort zone

Srivastav, an Su-30 pilot with more than 2,000 hr. on the type, says the Typhoon enjoyed very high rates of turn but adds, “we have a counter for that.”

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The Typhoon is not invincible, certainly not if you have the tactics

“You can only read and brief so much about the Flanker, but it’s not until you are up in the air with them, and against them, that you see what a great aircraft it is,” says Wing Cmdr. Chris Moon

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compare these comments to the 2007 exercise ,
you will see, that then IAF was praising the Typhoon, and the RAF was like, we have done well.

this time it is the opposite.

and remember, the MKI has 2 pilots, ONE TO FLY AND THE OTHER TO SHHOT
each wearing Topfowl HMDS (The frontline squardons have started replacing the Sura K), cued to R73"s (and soon R74"s and Python 5"s), the R73 E can turn 90 degree almost immediately after launch.

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The last time the Typhoon battled against the Su-30 on home turf was in 2007, during the first U.K.-based Indradhanush exercise. At the time, the Typhoon was still an immature warplane with the RAF, which was then building up experience on the type. The Su-30 crews were primarily working with Panavia Tornado F3s, and the Su-30s were hampered by their inability to use their NIIP N011M Bars radar system.

There were also concerns that the U.S. was using one of its RC-135U Combat Sent electronic-intelligence platforms during the 2007 exercise in a bid to gain information about the radar.

This year, however, the situation was markedly different. Both the Typhoon and Su-30MKI have matured, and Indian crews were able to use their radars. The Indians also made regular use of “super-maneuverability” provided by the Sukhoi’s 3-D thrust vector control (TVC) system.

“There were no restrictions on this exercise; we had full freedom,” says Indian air force Group Capt. Ashu Srivastav, who led the Indian contingent to the U.K.

Pilots from both sides refused to comment directly on comparisons of the two aircraft and which, if any, enjoyed an advantage, although one British pilot describes the two aircraft as being “equally comparable.”

“You can only read and brief so much about the Flanker, but it’s not until you are up in the air with them, and against them, that you see what a great aircraft it is,” says Wing Cmdr. Chris Moon, head of the RAF’s 3 Sqdn., the lead British unit for the exercise.

“These are two of the best dogfighters in the world. . . . One is predominantly a rate [of turn] fighter, and the other is a high-alpha slower-speed fighter,” says Moon, describing the Typhoon and Flanker, respectively.

Srivastav, an Su-30 pilot with more than 2,000 hr. on the type, says the Typhoon enjoyed very high rates of turn but adds, “we have a counter for that.”

One Indian pilot tells Aviation Week that they had used the yaw capability of the TVC to remain inside the tight turn radius of the Typhoon in order to keep the Typhoon within missile launch parameters.

It was agreed before the exercise that they would simulate common ranges for both BVR and WVR missiles, rather than the ranges of the actual missile type used on each aircraft.

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as for ROE , if you think that it is decided only by the RAF then you are wrong,
as far as bilateral exercises with India are concerned,
Indian air force officials visit the Host much before the exercise , to plan the itenenery,
they do it together.
never do they favour one forces strenght over the other,
IAF at least will not allow it.
if they want to assure themselves , that within their comfort zone,they are almost unbeatable
then they don not have to send their planes and men so far wasting their money,
when they couldhave done the same at home by facing Mig21's at home itself.


as far as i know , it is the first time the MKI was allowed to use all her fangs and claws
and she handed out a beating.


Wonder if they trained against IAF Mig-29's in order to test their tactics before the exercise. The Mig-29 also enjoys a very high t:w ratio and high turn rates. Probably the only aircraft in IAF inventory that can give the MKI a run for its money. A good stand -in for the Typhoon. MKI vs Mig-29 must be a hell of a dogfight. Only problem being that the Mig will run low on fuel very soon and will have to disengage.


ok i found that the the guys who viited the UK this time still used SURA K

and an amazing album here

Mikhail Simonov on super manoeuverability in BVR

Simonov explains
“Super-maneuverability should be looked at as a system of maneuvers for close aerial combat. Once the pilot receives a signal that his plane is being tracked by enemy radar, the first thing he needs to do is to go vertical. While gaining altitude and losing speed the aircraft starts to disappear from the screens of radars that use the Doppler effect.
“
However, the opponent is no fool either and will counter by pitching his aircraft upward as well. By that time our plane is going vertical and its speed approaches zero. But all Doppler radars can recognise only a moving target. If the aircraft speed is zero or simply low enough to prevent the enemy radar from calculating the Doppler component, for the enemy our aircraft will disappear. He may still be able to track us visually, but he will not be able to launch a radar-guided missile (either active or semi-active), simply because the missile’ s seeker would not pick-up the target.”

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HERE comes the RAF's comments
finally

Responding to the Indian claims, the RAF source they were clearly designed for the “domestic audience”. He told The Independent: “There must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India, as the headlines of the Indian press bear no relation to the results of the tactical scenarios completed on the exercise in any shape or form.”

The RAF source also stressed that the Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs” as they did not make full use of their more advanced weapons systems.
Tony Osborne, the London bureau chief of Aviation Week, also suggested caution when dealing with the Indian claims. “These cricket-style scores claimed by the IAF look impressive but should be treated with caution and certainly not as a realistic gauge of combat capability,” he said.
“We have to view these scores through the haze of pilot bravado, national pride and also some political correctness. Nonetheless, the Su-30MKI is one of the aircraft that the Typhoon was designed to tackle and defeat, and no doubt in the right hands would present a potent challenge. Today [though] the aim would be to engage aircraft like the Su-30MKI from long-range before the two could come together in a dogfight.”

Even the Indian pilot admitted the SU-30s were “less successful” in the longer-range combat exercises.
(HEHE NICE ONE BUT HE ALSO ADMITTED THAT THE FLANKERS HAD AN EDGE OVER THE TYPHOON EVEN THEN)
Aviation experts also pointed to an exercise in 2011 when RAF fighters decimated the ranks of the visiting IAF pilots, prompting the then Air Chief Marshal of the RAF, Stephen Dalton, to comment: “Well, they lost.”

A spokesperson for the RAF said of this summer’s exercises: “Our analysis does not match what has been reported, RAF pilots and the Typhoon performed well throughout the exercise with and against the Indian Air Force. Both [forces] learnt a great deal from the exercise and the RAF look forward to the next opportunity to train alongside the IAF.”

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Pathetic H&D saving exercise. The RAF must learn to take it as well as they give. I don't remember any IAF personnel making excuses for their "supposedly" poor performance in the earlier exercise.


and as my friend Shiv at BRF puts it

OK Now I have a real picture of Indradhanush. This year it was definitely a case of

• information designed for the “domestic audience”.
• there must have been some clouded recollection on the flights back to India
• Typhoons had effectively been fighting “with one arm behind their backs"

On the other hand, in a previous exercise when RAF fighters decimated the ranks of the visiting IAF pilots, prompting the then Air Chief Marshal of the RAF, Stephen Dalton, to comment: “Well, they lost.” At that time

• There was no Brit audience interested enough so no question of any statements for "domestic audience"
• British pilot recollections were crystal clear unlike the hazy recollections of Indian pilots
• No mention of how many Typhoon arms were tied but the Su-30s were using three or four arms all flailing about

It was the RAF who gave us laws and a sense of justice after all.

I am certain the Typhoon is a great aircraft - but if a British Air Marshal had to say "They lost" last time I am sure the famous British sense of fair play and justice - (remember the Goddess Minerva and her scales and all) should not have any trouble adjusting to a 12-0 kick up the backside no? i mean it wasn't as though Vishnu Som started this. That Air Marshal did back then.

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