Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter bd popeye
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That's true, but historically the export version Mig-29 is airplane that has had "issues", for an airplane that is operating off the carrier for the first time, and we no of no particular "upgrades" to navalise the engine??? (I'm sure there were some mods?) Salt Air is and Sea Spray is a veritable "torture chamber" environment for aircraft and most particularly avionics, airframes, and engines????
I think you know what they mean by "pack up", its a very common term among the racing community, means to "blow, flame out, power rollback, high temp, low oil pressure" it is a non event specific term lumping all engine failures into a big box??
Bringing a hot fighter aboard ship is a violent event, the turbine that is happily spinning at many thousands of RPM is near zero thrust in order to create a high sink rate, as it contacts the deck the throttle is advanced to full, and the aircraft slams onto the deck, that creates a tremendous side load on bearings etc, also the stable geometric plane of ops is suddenly subjected to twisting wrenching side loads and up and down loads. It puts a tremendous gyroscopic insult on the very precise turbine...
For those who are unaware, most engine failure, recips as well as turbine occur upon application of full throttle, on take-off, or go around for example.
I think you know what they mean by "pack up", its a very common term among the racing community, means to "blow, flame out, power rollback, high temp, low oil pressure" it is a non event specific term lumping all engine failures into a big box??
Bringing a hot fighter aboard ship is a violent event, the turbine that is happily spinning at many thousands of RPM is near zero thrust in order to create a high sink rate, as it contacts the deck the throttle is advanced to full, and the aircraft slams onto the deck, that creates a tremendous side load on bearings etc, also the stable geometric plane of ops is suddenly subjected to twisting wrenching side loads and up and down loads. It puts a tremendous gyroscopic insult on the very precise turbine...
For those who are unaware, most engine failure, recips as well as turbine occur upon application of full throttle, on take-off, or go around for example.
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Miragedriver
Brigadier
NDTV.com Exclusive: The Sticking Points of India's $12 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal
NEW DELHI: The 12 billion dollar discussions centred on whether India will buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France have made some progress, sources said today, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi. Major kinks remain in need of ironing, but are unlikely to be deal-breakers, said sources involved in the talks, though they cautioned that it's unlikely that the deal will be signed before Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels to Paris in April. However, by that time, some officials who are part of the negotiating process are hopeful that a statement of intent can be agreed upon by both the Indian and French governments for the contract that has been stalled for nearly three years.
The plan is for France to supply 18 fully-made fighter jets to India, with the other 108 being produced by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautica Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. There is an option for India to acquire 63 more Rafale jets.
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.
The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Hindustan Aeronautics, for its part, is positive about its capabilities in manufacturing the Rafale fighter. At Aero India, Asia's largest air show, last week, the new HAL chairman Suvarna Raju told reporters that HAL "is the lead production agency for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (ie the Rafale) which gives us [the rights] for manufacture and testing. We don't want others to stand guarantee for our product." This would be welcome news for Dassault as it seeks to close the Rafale deal, negotiations for which have continued for more than three years.
The Dassault Rafale was shortlisted by the Indian Air Force as its fighter of choice in a fly-off involving some of the world's leading fighters in 2011. For years, the Air Force has made it clear, that the induction of the Rafale is imperative to ensure that its dwindling fleet strength is replenished with modern aircraft to counter the rapidly modernising Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces.
Sources:
Back to bottling my Grenache
NEW DELHI: The 12 billion dollar discussions centred on whether India will buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France have made some progress, sources said today, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi. Major kinks remain in need of ironing, but are unlikely to be deal-breakers, said sources involved in the talks, though they cautioned that it's unlikely that the deal will be signed before Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels to Paris in April. However, by that time, some officials who are part of the negotiating process are hopeful that a statement of intent can be agreed upon by both the Indian and French governments for the contract that has been stalled for nearly three years.
The plan is for France to supply 18 fully-made fighter jets to India, with the other 108 being produced by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautica Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. There is an option for India to acquire 63 more Rafale jets.
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.
The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Hindustan Aeronautics, for its part, is positive about its capabilities in manufacturing the Rafale fighter. At Aero India, Asia's largest air show, last week, the new HAL chairman Suvarna Raju told reporters that HAL "is the lead production agency for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (ie the Rafale) which gives us [the rights] for manufacture and testing. We don't want others to stand guarantee for our product." This would be welcome news for Dassault as it seeks to close the Rafale deal, negotiations for which have continued for more than three years.
The Dassault Rafale was shortlisted by the Indian Air Force as its fighter of choice in a fly-off involving some of the world's leading fighters in 2011. For years, the Air Force has made it clear, that the induction of the Rafale is imperative to ensure that its dwindling fleet strength is replenished with modern aircraft to counter the rapidly modernising Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces.
Sources:
Back to bottling my Grenache
Bose
New Member
I would recommend not to take that report seriously. It is probably the result of some stupid understanding of the situation or data that crossed that particular reporter getting a wrong interpretation. And please don't forget VKD was on the crosshairs of a dedicated attack by the media when it was undergoing repairs and seatrials in Russia. This article could be just the start of another set of articles aimed at VKD and her airwing.
Not familiar with US terms can you please elaborate what < "bolt" on one engine > means?
First of all Indian Navy as of now operate over 30 x MiG-29K/KUB and more than 22 x MiG-29K/KUB participated in the TROPEX-2015 exercise recently.
So that puts up two questions
1) What was the nature of this reported "pack up" and what exactly was this "pack up"?
2) How many RD-33MK were delivered to the Indian Navy.
We don't know exactly how many RD-33MK have been transferred to the Indian Navy. But atleast 60 x RD-33MKs are in service now.
If 30 engines (with one of the two engine/fighter) have failed it means 30 aircraft have been grounded. Which we know is not true.
If 30 engines (with both engine/fighter) have failed it means atleast 15 x MiG-29K/KUB would have likely crashed. Again, we know it is not true!
If there is a problem it will be checked and sorted out. But nothing in that report smells reliable to me.
Bose
New Member
Good point.
Agreed and that was my entire point.
You cannot simply ignore such reports, particularly when reported in well known outlets. The Indian Navy has had a number of issues lately and will want to ensure that the public is informed.
I have every confidence that the Indian Navy will check it out and report on it.
Bose said:
1. No, it does not mean they would be grounded, an engine change takes from two to eight hours, depending on who does it??? and since they are twin engines it does NOT mean there would have been 15 crashes, that's the main reason we operate twins?? is redundancy? so no that is an in-accurate assumption.
2. You are assuming that every engine issue is catastrophic, they are not, but they are a concern, it could be something as simple as a "HOT" start, requiring an immediate shut down in order not to "cook" the "hot section", or a power-"rollback", where the computer pulls
the power back in order to prevent engine damage??
3. That's why the author used the non-sensational "packed-up", simply means it had an event that required maintenance, inspection??, engine was un-available? which means it packed-up!
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Brumby
Major
The concept of Occam's Razor was introduced to address the tendency of postulating a variety of reasons, interpretation and assumptions rather than taking the simplest view and that in this case it failed. I presume there are operating standards to check and monitor engine health and performance and that it is benchmarked against MTBF. I would simply postulate it as a case where the engines are not meeting MTBF standards. Plane crashing because of engine failure signals to me failure of QA within the system.
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thunderchief
Senior Member
Mig-29 had/has many issues, but not with the engines . And it is not exactly operating from the carrier for the first time. There were tests back in Russia before the Vikramaditya was handed over . With such statistically significant number of alleged "pack-ups" something would show up earlier .
From the point of engine, touch-and-go is same when it happens on concrete and on deck. And IN pilots performed many such manoeuvres while they were waiting for carrier. Again, something would show up if there was something to show .