Indian Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

valysre

Junior Member
Registered Member
My problem is, there's no comparison! This superstition, based on Indian childlike naivety and Modi's Jai Hind megalomania, that the two are equal rivals is simply a joke! You only have to look at the industry and its products, but also at the numbers of weapons systems... it would be like suggesting a comparison of my school's football team against Bayern Munich would have a chance.
Viewing Indian defense procurement, and the conversations that happen around India defense procurement, it quickly becomes clear that it (inexplicably) revolves around China. I still remember when the Indians got their first nuclear delivery system with the theoretical range to hit Beijing, and the absurd amount of chest-thumping that came with it.

This is only one example, every single major Indian procurement achievement is without fail talked about with relation to China. Artillery platform enters trials? Immediately bring up Chinese artillery systems. Tank finally exits testing? Immediately bring up the ZTQ-15, and Ladakh. A drone turns on its engine for the first time while strapped to the ground? It's immediately as capable as the WZ-10, and India now has the keys to the Malacca straits.

It's a very unhealthy, and quixotic mindset. China, to the outside observer, is quite clearly ahead of India. And India is always wanting to leapfrog some decades worth of experience to try and quickly match China. If the Indians were simply to let go of constantly comparing everything to China, I think they would find their defense progress much more satisfactory.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
My problem is, there's no comparison! This superstition, based on Indian childlike naivety and Modi's Jai Hind megalomania, that the two are equal rivals is simply a joke! You only have to look at the industry and its products, but also at the numbers of weapons systems... it would be like suggesting a comparison of my school's football team against Bayern Munich would have a chance.
For instance, admitting it, together with current trends, is also comparison.
China wasn't really comparable to USSR in 1970s or US in 2000s. They compared and planned nevertheless. And look where we're now.

As much as Indian path forward in turbulent world is unclear (and it's clear that it won't be taking east Asian one), it's a young, rapidly growing economy with all signs of one.

Even massive indian internet invasion, which you fight on Twitter, is ultimately sign of it - booming internet penetration, rapidly improving literacy.
 
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zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well, I have to admit, I don't know the author (
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) and, at least to me, he's never struck me as an expert on China... but the fact that he works for Helion and Tom Cooper certainly doesn't speak in his favor!
(But that's just my malice.)

Took a quick look at Mangesh Sawant's
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which claims:
Mangesh’s scholarly works are published in Small Wars Journal, The National Interest, E-International Relations, Indian Defense Review, Modern Diplomacy, Eurasia Review, Over The Horizon Journal, Geopolitical Monitor, Security Management (ASIS), Internationale Politik, CISOMAG, The Geopolitics, The Diplomatist & Journal of Indo-Pacific Affairs

There's absolutely nothing scholarly about most of these publications and outlets.

Some of these sites like
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,
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,
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,
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, and
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are clearly content farms and/or the digital equivalent of vanity press.

These are lower tier outlets than
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, where Mr. Sawant published three pieces that may have been sponsored — by Boeing and/or another party trying to secure the sale of the F-15EX to India — from the look of things. That might make this gentleman a paid shill, but TBF, everyone got to make a living.

Regardless, it's bizarre someone — especially with a supposed degree from Columbia University — would tarnish their own name and reputation by associating with the aforementioned outlets of ill repute.

However, bragging about it on their LinkedIn profile is probably what's even more embarrassing.



Can you please control your hatred a little bit.
I understand that some level of strong opinion or even animosity is expected in discussions here, but I urge everyone to avoid taking hatred to an extreme. Please keep the exchanges constructive and avoid letting hostility escalate beyond what’s reasonable.
Can mods moderate this type of hate. Thanks in advance :)

How is that even hatred?

Am I somehow obliged to pray for good deals and steep discounts for the IAF, the Indian MoD and the broader Indian government? :D

You might not know this, but the Indian MoD and its child agencies are widely considered some of the most difficult, if not obnoxious defense customers to deal with — even by the low bar of government bureaucracies — and some of us deeply empathize with the contractors and vendors, international and Indian, transacting with them!

These vendors and contractors have every right to squeeze every possible dollar, euro, ruble and/or rupee out of Indian state coffers. :cool:

If the Indian government and its subordinate entities are offended by that, then they ought to R&D, supply chain and manufacture every system, subsystem and component themselves!
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
For instance, admitting it, together with current trends, is also comparison.
China wasn't really comparable to USSR in 1970s or US in 2000s. They compared and planned nevertheless. And look where we're now.

As much as Indian path forward in turbulent world is unclear (and it's clear that it won't be taking east Asian one), it's a young, rapidly growing economy with all signs of one.

Even massive indian internet invasion, which you fight on Twitter, is ultimately sign of it - booming internet penetration, rapidly improving literacy.

The key difference is Beijing never bragged about being able to annihilate the Soviet Union even during the most fanatical phase under Mao. They acknowledged Soviet advantage and were prepared for long term guerilla warfare in case the unfortunate happened, and were prepared for heavy casualties. Current leadership in India treat nuclear war like a Fallout game on very easy difficulty.
 

4Tran

Junior Member
Registered Member
Play both sides again: As is necessary for the 'non alignment' thing india has been doing for ages
If this is what India's foreign ministry thinks non-alignment is supposed to look like, the government should seriously think about purging them.

India is just doing what India does. Which is: they want to play imperial games, but don't know what the eff they are doing. India wants to warm up with China, yet it also wants to undermine China. How does that work? No it doesn't, and never have worked.

If we observe India long enough, it is a pattern. India will always backstab. When Nehru was still singing about "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai", he was ordering Indian troops to walk into Chinese territories and shoot any PLA troops that come to stop them. When the PLA responded, he then cried to the world, calling it a "betrayal" of "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai".

India's joint naval drills with the Philippines is ultimately just noise. India is never gonna come to the PH's aid when it is fighting with China. India's power projection capability in the SCS is laughable. And I doubt that India truly has the balls to face China in the SCS. Still, if India dares to do so, then they are more than welcomed to send their ships to the SCS to be turned into new artificial reefs.
The problem is the action; it's the timing. Right now, India is making signals of trying to get closer to China to show their displeasure with the US and to offset some of their losses. And then they pull a stunt like this! It's just boneheaded!

Viewing Indian defense procurement, and the conversations that happen around India defense procurement, it quickly becomes clear that it (inexplicably) revolves around China. I still remember when the Indians got their first nuclear delivery system with the theoretical range to hit Beijing, and the absurd amount of chest-thumping that came with it.

This is only one example, every single major Indian procurement achievement is without fail talked about with relation to China. Artillery platform enters trials? Immediately bring up Chinese artillery systems. Tank finally exits testing? Immediately bring up the ZTQ-15, and Ladakh. A drone turns on its engine for the first time while strapped to the ground? It's immediately as capable as the WZ-10, and India now has the keys to the Malacca straits.

It's a very unhealthy, and quixotic mindset. China, to the outside observer, is quite clearly ahead of India. And India is always wanting to leapfrog some decades worth of experience to try and quickly match China. If the Indians were simply to let go of constantly comparing everything to China, I think they would find their defense progress much more satisfactory.
It really feels like India is a young country that's looking for every source of validation it can get. And so every accomplishment, every little bit of progress, and every milestone as signs of that validation. China used to be like this too; especially back in the '70s and '80s. Obviously, China wasn't as self-deluded, but it's possible to draw parallels. One big difference is that back then, China didn't have a path to becoming a true world power whereas India has unlimited opportunities. On the flip side, China didn't have many internal obstacles whereas India's internal obstacles seem completely intractable (and nobody is doing anything to fix them).

Also, it's important to note that India isn't really a country; it's so big and diverse it's more akin to Europe if the latter had a single federal government. And so the military exists as one of the greatest sources of national unity and it's placed on a pedestal. Which is good for some things but it's extremely bad for self-reflection and reform and modernization.
 

FighterHead

New Member
Registered Member
How is that even hatred?

Am I somehow obliged to pray for good deals and steep discounts for the IAF, the Indian MoD and the broader Indian government?
Hmm.. I get your point now, sorry for not seeing it like that earlier. With all the hate against India going around lately, I thought it came from a worse place than just frustration. Didn’t mean to jump to conclusions or accuse you unfairly. Thanks for explaining, and I hope we can keep this respectful. Have a good day!:)
 
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Randomuser

Captain
Registered Member
For instance, admitting it, together with current trends, is also comparison.
China wasn't really comparable to USSR in 1970s or US in 2000s. They compared and planned nevertheless. And look where we're now.

As much as Indian path forward in turbulent world is unclear (and it's clear that it won't be taking east Asian one), it's a young, rapidly growing economy with all signs of one.

Even massive indian internet invasion, which you fight on Twitter, is ultimately sign of it - booming internet penetration, rapidly improving literacy.
This seems to a commonly stated thing which may be a fallacy.

China did it. Therefore India can do it.

Maybe it can. Maybe it cannot. The term middle income trap is reserved for all those countries who had "potential" (a word used by a lot by India for itself) and failed. Now we don't even think of them as taking over. Back in the day Brazil had hope.

In fact most countries failed. I recall Jin Canrong saying there's barely any different between number of fully developed industrialized countries pre and post world wars. Its mainly East Asia and a few east euro countries that were fortunate enough to get enough EU aid (not you balkans)

Reading this thread, I feel now I get what people mean when they say wars are won long before they even start. Like long before the war starts, you need to do significant prep work of developing your talent force, technology, supply chains etc. basically invest early correctly before the markets find about it so you will have an edge. No one even cared about these rare earth things until it's found out China has 90% of them. And that's just the surface!

Right now the way I see it is China did all the prep work decades ago when no one even cared who China was. That's why you are seeing all these emerging tech come out of it. Meanwhile India is playing catch-up when already a huge chunk of the spotlight is on it. Them yapping non stop makes it worse. I don't give them zero chance but you can understand the significant uphill battle it faces. This is assuming we don't have some elite haxxor Ai that can just summon alien tech out of thin air like protoss in StarCraft. There's always these unforseen things but not given a significant chance.
 
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zyklon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Hmm.. I get your point now, sorry for not seeing it like that earlier. With all the hate against India going around lately, I thought it came from a worse place than just frustration. Didn’t mean to jump to conclusions or accuse you unfairly. Thanks for explaining, and I hope we can keep this respectful. Have a good day!:)

Appreciate your understanding and good faith.

Not trying to hate on India — even if I'm rather snarky and irreverent in general or so I've been told — but transacting and negotiating with the Indian authorities is generally speaking reputed to be very, if not extremely difficult and frustrating.

If you're curious about some of the challenges and frustrations associated with such transactions and negotiations, you might enjoy reading
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by Stephen Cohen and Sunil Dasgupta.
 
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