Indian Economics thread.

[Overbom]

Gentlemen please. This is the Indian Economics thread
How about moving this (interesting) discussion to the relevant military thread?

Thank you

 

[DarkStar]

And the Philippines has what? Internalized poverty?

Philippines got the Latin American treatment: Spanish colonisation and catholic proselytism and anglo American colonisation; there’s potential for Philippines to turn it around not just because of Duterte but also given its Chinese diaspora and proximity to China and historic links with Chinese trade

 

[ansy1968]

Philippines got the Latin American treatment: Spanish colonisation and catholic proselytism and anglo American colonisation; there’s potential for Philippines to turn it around not just because of Duterte but also given its Chinese diaspora and proximity to China and historic links with Chinese trade

@DarkStar bro not only that we're located in a strategic pieces of land in the most vibrant region, now is the moment (RCEP) to seizes this opportunity and not embark in a stupid war/crisis of others doing.

 

[Sardaukar20]

They have an impact if you hypothetically weigh one option against another - and those will be different ships.
If designers have both directly on their "to do" request - there is no "options" - both will be fitted.
In case of Vikramaditya - the size of her hangar was predetermined by the hangar of the original ship(Baku). In case of Vikrant - same was set (determined) at the final RfP stage.
p.s. barak-8 isn't really that large of a missile.

Because while they're closely related - they aren't the same ships. You can't change Kuznetsov to be Liaoning. Or to be fair - you can, but for a prohibitive time and financial cost. Same with Vikramaditya and Vikrant.

I understand that this is a thread for nationalistic fighting, but I am not really interested in it, and only came for the ship discussion.
Fact is, for all intents and purposes, is that IN is a soon-to-be 2 carrier navy. Millions in poverty or no, you have to understand it as such.

To be fair - the previous generation of Indian warships(Delhi/Shivalik/Rajputs still in service) do in fact carry layered air defenses.
But while it is a downside - it isn't an unique India-specific downside, and is often accepted for warships of this class. Including many Chinese ship classes.

Brahmos was tested against land targets. Onyx(close relative) was actually used in combat against them(more to make a statement, but still). And finally - Indians are in this case simply continuing with what is known to work (operation Trident).
All in all - it's worth noting, that Indian military currently doesn't really need that much of naval strike to begin with - it only makes sense for Western Pakistani ports). The last time Indian navy was used for this mission - Eastern Pakistan was still in existence, and majority of targets weren't within reach of any other stand-off weapons.
p.s. you conveniently forgot 3M14E, which Indians have on 14 ships in service (5 more in acquisition).

1. Power projection is originally on 3rd place in their missions(after fleet air defense and anti-shipping strike). I.e. it's actually pretty low.
2. Carrier is a sea control/strike platform, flag or stated goal(coast defense carrier? wow) on it is of no difference. It can fight for sea control in the waters around China. It may fight for sea control protecting China's territorial integrity(Taiwan gets itchy behind the ear).
Or elsewhere. This is the point of a carrier. "Protecting sea lanes" by China is a defensive mission from a Chinese standpoint(Chinese trade), but from the Indian one it's actually an offensive mission(naval offensive in Indian ocean, aimed at the destruction of the Indian navy).
Why? You may find some time to read A. Mahan, it's useful for arguments on the use of sea power. And look at the map on top of that.
3. I am not "desperate", nor am I really "protecting" it. I'd prefer to call it having at least some knowledge on the subject.
If you despise "Jai Hinds" - be above them.

Again - spare me the political side of the dispute, I am only interested in the naval aspect here.
It doesn't even matter, say, who will begin. The majority of Chinese SLOCs pass through Malakka and Indian ocean - and it's pretty obvious (and known!) plan of IN to cut them in case of hostilities: in fact, it visibly demonstrated just that last summer - by demonstratively shadowing China-bound commercial vessels.
If India (China, Pakistan, Burkina-Faso) does pick this fight - PLAN will have to do something, or else what's the point of its current existence; The only way to solve this in given geographical conditions is establishing control of the Indian ocean. The way of establishing control over the body of water is obvious(Mahan again). The mission of the IN, in this case, is obviously the opposite - which is greatly simplified by geography(long and restricting Malakka+Andaman islands; "wall" of neutral nations in-between; significant logistical and military problems of using other straits).

Consequently, for as long as India sees China as a primary military(or political) threat - it'll continue to try to ensure its capability to win this battle. As of now - it technically can.
And, vise versa - until and unless China can somehow solve this problem politically - Indian subcontinent will continue to weigh as a sort of Damocles sword over East Asia-bound trade routs, and it's going to be a possible (undesirable, but possible) scenario for the PLAN. Ongoing coast defense supercarrier construction is, among others, a way to address that exact problem.

Dunno. 3 different navies. And I said about Russian naval aviation, not navy. It's an important distinction.
p.s. until and unless we're ending the world, SSBN is more of a pain in the ass for a navy than an actual asset.

Let's agree to disagree here.

You think that the Indian Navy is a navy worthy of being able to defeat the PLAN in the Indian Ocean, and cripple China's trade route. And I think that the Indian Navy is an overrated green water navy rebranded by India as a blue water navy. Because of that India wants to use the IN for gunboat diplomacy on China.

You want to call me a Jai Hind, that's your choice. My opinion is that you have drunk the Jai Hind koolaid. You are resorting to mental gymnastics to justify why India's use of its navy for gunboat diplomacy on China is going to be a stunning success.

Underestimating an opponent is always dangerous. But it has been clear to all of us, who is doing the real underestimating. It's the Indians who are saying: "IN > PLAN! Yay! Let's threaten to choke China's sea trade!". While in China its more about: "Look, India is threatening us with their navy. Our PLAN is better, but let's prepare for that".

Since you like Mahan so much. Here is the bigger picture. The Indian Navy is behind the Japanese Navy in size and its growing at a much slower pace relative to the PLAN. India does not and will not have the economy in the foreseeable future to outcompete China in the naval domain. There is no shifting of the balance of power anytime soon. And it is good for everyone that it stays that way.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Looks like plan for Superpower India have to wait a bit longer.

Ford Motor Company bails on India, will shut car factories there

Ford Motor Co. will shut its car factories in India and record roughly $2 billion in restructuring charges, scaling back significantly in a country that past management saw becoming one of its three biggest markets.

Manufacturing of vehicles for sale in India will stop immediately, and about 4,000 employees will be affected, the carmaker said in a statement Thursday. Ford will wind down an assembly plant in the western state of Gujarat by the fourth quarter, as well as vehicle and engine manufacturing plants in the southern city of Chennai by the second quarter of next year.

Ford’s moves come months after it dropped a plan to cede most of its Indian operations to local sport utility vehicle maker Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. Ford India racked up more than $2 billion in losses during the past decade and wrote down the value of its business by about $800 million in 2019.

Link:

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[Gatekeeper]

To be fair, in the Chinese case simply restoring to a normal historical state of affairs means pretty much it(superpower status).
Which is why most countries around are nervous, like it or not.

What a nonsence. So when China wants to improve the lives of their people. It's just China going after superpower status? It's got nothing to do with their leaders genuinely wanting to improve the lives of their people according to your logic?

There are tons of limitations there, but in the end - India has one carrier in service, another - on trials. Which for their economy and quite stiff opposition from army&air force is a significant achievement.
Btw, the same optics have to be applied to all ships in Indian service - they don't have blank checks, and when they assume they do - India often gets into all sorts of troubles.

So it's a great to achievement to procure arms to fight an imaginary foe. Yet, while the "blank cheques" that built a "mighty" two-carrier navy is lorded proudly by you, the rest of the population goes hungry and uneducated. Yes lets rejoyice. We can all see which country's got their priority right.

So India has 2 aircraft carriers for a country with around 800 million people in poverty. Bravo! If you think that is a significant achievement, how about the other 'lesser navies' of Brazil, Argentina, Thailand whom at some point had aircraft carriers? They don't have India's economy, yet they were able to procure carriers. Hmm, maybe India is not so special after all?

This is where he can't get his head around, because he is too busy being proud of India's navy's achievement.

I understand that this is a thread for nationalistic fighting, but I am not really interested in it, and only came for the ship discussion.
Fact is, for all intents and purposes, is that IN is a soon-to-be 2 carrier navy. Millions in poverty or no, you have to understand it as such.

No body is nationalistic fighting. You're the one fighting with yourself. At the outset of this discussion, me and @Sardaukar20 was just saying India is trying to achieve superpower status at the expense of her other human developments. You're the one that's dragging this discussion into the gutter.

 

[Bellum_Romanum]

What a nonsence. So when China wants to improve the lives of their people. It's just China going after superpower status? It's got nothing to do with their leaders genuinely wanting to improve the lives of their people according to your logic?



So it's a great to achievement to procure arms to fight an imaginary foe. Yet, while the "blank cheques" that built a "mighty" two-carrier navy is lorded proudly by you, the rest of the population goes hungry and uneducated. Yes lets rejoyice. We can all see which country's got their priority right.

View attachment 77048


This is where he can't get his head around, because he is too busy being proud of India's navy's achievement.



No body is nationalistic fighting. You're the one fighting with yourself. At the outset of this discussion, me and @Sardaukar20 was just saying India is trying to achieve superpower status at the expense of her other human developments. You're the one that's dragging this discussion into the gutter.

View attachment 77050

Yo, no need to be this Savage. Lol

 

[Gloire_bb]

What a nonsence. So when China wants to improve the lives of their people. It's just China going after superpower status? It's got nothing to do with their leaders genuinely wanting to improve the lives of their people according to your logic?

It...doesn't matter?
Genuinely, not genuinely, there is a reason China got the name of 中国(which was accepted by everyone around as a normal state of affairs!), and ended up being the civilizational center of the whole region for more than 2 millenniums.
You can be a peaceful superpower, but you will be a superpower nonetheless. Medium states typically don't like appearance of superpowers next to them, no matter the intentions of the superpower itself.
For Japan, for example, right now China's rise means crumbling of its whole model of security for the last ~70 years(and at a larger scale - final loss of its status obtained 130 years ago in the 1st Sino-Japanese war).

We can all see which country's got theur priority right.

We can. But carriers are already there(well, almost).

You're the one tgats dragging this discussion into the gutter.

Apparently, every discussion about China must produce an angry hongweibing.
Spare me.

 

[Overbom]

Jai Hind! Modi 56inch wide chest, will now use these magnificent 2 SPACE carriers to bomb its hundred of millions of people out of poverty.

For each person who REFUSES to leave poverty, he will throw a super duper BrahMos missile for punishment.

Jokes aside, India should stop doing nonsensical things with its military and start investing on its human capital and infrastructure. The longer it delays developing, the closer the 4th Industrial Revolution is coming which will be a disaster for India.

So lets make it clear to the Jai Hind people, India's greatest enemy in the future is neither Pakistan neither China. It is the 4th Industrial Revolution that will destroy India if it is not sufficiently prepared for its arrival

 

[Gatekeeper]

Yo, no need to be this Savage. Lol

Sorry. But you got to cut me some slack. Don't forget this guy is being going back and forth regarding how India's mighty carrier force is.

When this is the economic forum and we were discussing on mis-allocation of resources towards the military away from human resources.

It...doesn't matter?
Genuinely, not genuinely, there is a reason China got the name of 中国(which was accepted by everyone around as a normal state of affairs!), and ended up being the civilizational center of the whole region for more than 2 millenniums.
You can be a peaceful superpower, but you will be a superpower nonetheless. Medium states typically don't like appearance of superpowers next to them, no matter the intentions of the superpower itself.
For Japan, for example, right now China's rise means crumbling of its whole model of security for the last ~70 years(and at a larger scale - final loss of its status obtained 130 years ago in the 1st Sino-Japanese war).

We can. But carriers are already there(well, almost).

Apparently, every discussion about China must produce an angry hongweibing.
Spare me.

You still don't get it. Do you?

You keep moving the goal post. Now you're moving on to Japan. Etc.

For the final time. All we are saying is India's priority is and has been superpower military even at the cost of human development. Whereas China's was human development even at the expense of military. That's it. Period.

Now you can argue what we said is wrong or right. But simple dragging in Japan, carriers and missiles, and then accusing people of being nationalistic is nothing but nonsense.

Cease this nonsense please!