India incursion and Chinese standoff at Dolam, Bhutan

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
events might be coming to an end here, so I'll repeat what I posted a few minutes ago in

the view from the middle of Europe is this: if I see a CCTV News report from a resumed road-building, the winner will be obvious

I Thought your position before was China is not going to do anything and the Indian will stay . Now you change your tune?

You should know better the dispute has nothing to do with the road. Apparently India got panic because Bhutan is close to settling the border with China ceding Doklam for larger area in North of Bhutan and get infusion of money from China

India want to prevent this from happening by rail roading and corralled Bhutan into common front denying China Doklam area.

I guess this strong arm tactic failed because Bhutan doesn't cooperate and not single country in the world support India position.

So it left them with no option but backtrack their position which is better than war

So the view from middle Europe need to widen up and see the world as it is instead out of the prism of ideology and narrow mindedness. I suggest you travel widely in Asia and it could help you dispel your stereotype of Asia
Do like the German did they travel widely in Asia and they are cured of their gelbe gefahr though not all of them
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
SCMP's take ...
India withdraws troops from disputed border zone, China says
Beijing, New Delhi issue differing reports of how ‘disengagement’ was agreed ahead of BRICS meeting this weekend
PUBLISHED : Monday, 28 August, 2017, 3:04pm
UPDATED : Monday, 28 August, 2017, 11:26pm
COMMENTS: 222


Liu Zhen
Laura Zhou

26 Aug 2017 (SCMP)
China said India had pulled its troops from the Chinese side of a disputed Himalayan border area on Monday afternoon, after a months-long stand-off.
THIS WEEK IN ASIA

Earlier in the day, India’s foreign ministry said it had agreed with China to an “expeditious disengagement” of troops from the Doklam plateau, an area close to the borders of China, India and Bhutan. The announcements come ahead of a meeting of BRICS countries – Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa – in China this weekend. While Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to attend, neither New Delhi nor Beijing has confirmed he will do so.

But each side differs on the details of the “disengagement”. Beijing said Indian troops had pulled back by early afternoon. Indian media reports said the “disengagement” would not be completed on Monday.

“In recent weeks, India and China have maintained diplomatic communication in respect of the incident at Doklam,” India’s Ministry of External Affairs said.

“On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site at Doklam has been agreed to and is ongoing.”

The Chinese foreign ministry said Indian military personnel had pulled out of the Chinese side by 2.30pm on Monday.

“I am pleased to confirm that trespassing Indian personnel have all pulled back to the Indian side of the boundary,” foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said.

When asked why she had mentioned only the withdrawal of Indian soldiers, Hua said: “The situation at the site has changed, and China will adjust and deploy according to the current situation.”
She added: “Chinese troops continue to patrol on the Chinese side of the boundary” and China would continue to “exercise its sovereign rights and defend territorial sovereignty in accordance with the historical demarcation agreement”.

Indian media reports said both Indian and Chinese troops were slowly being withdrawn from the disputed zone.

India’s NDTV reported that soldiers from both sides had started pulling out, but the process of removing them would not be completed on Monday.

In an earlier position paper, China said that at the peak of the crisis, up to 400 Indian soldiers and two bulldozers were engaged in the confrontation.

Despite the announcements, neither Beijing nor New Delhi mentioned if China had agreed to halt its construction of a road near the disputed border, the project that triggered the dispute.
Chinese navy’s live-fire drill may be warning shot to India amid ongoing Doklam stand-off

Sun Shihai, an expert on South Asia at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said: “There was deliberate ambiguity in the two foreign ministries’ statements. And each side’s media will write the narrative to suit the feelings of their audiences.”

“We don’t know the details. It’s not appropriate to say which side has made the bigger compromise, or who is the winner or loser.”

Rajeev Ranjan Chaturvedy, a research associate at the Institute of South Asian Studies at the National University of Singapore, said officials from both sides had worked hard to defuse the tensions.

“The diplomatic channels were open throughout,” Chaturvedy said. “Withdrawing troops will ease some tension and will provide room for both leaders at the BRICS [summit].”

James Char, an associate research fellow with the China Programme at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore, agreed.

“This is a face-saving measure for China and India, especially given that Xi and Modi are expected to meet in Xiamen,” he said.

The border row started in June when India sent troops to stop China building a road in the Doklam area, a remote, uninhabited territory claimed by both China and Bhutan. India said it sent in troops because Chinese military activity there was a threat to the security of its own northeast region.
But China said India had no role to play in the area and insisted it withdraw unilaterally or face the prospect of an escalation. Chinese state media had warned India of a fate worse than its crushing defeat in the war in 1962.

Li Li, a South Asian affairs expert from the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations in Beijing, said the troop withdrawal would ease tensions for a while, but would not resolve the fundamental dispute the neighbours have over territory.

“Would it [a conflict] happen again if Beijing tried to build a road there sometime in the future?” she said. “India and China need to learn how to manage crises and prevent stand-offs from recurring.”
Char said he thought that although the root of the problem would remain, the risk of a serious conflict was very low as both China and India “clearly prioritise their national development over an area of mountainous terrain”.

“We can’t discount a similar stand-off happening in the Doklam region in the future, but I believe it won’t be soon,” he said.

“Both sides can be expected to pause their activities in the near to medium term.”
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
SCMP's take ...
India withdraws troops from disputed border zone, China says
Beijing, New Delhi issue differing reports of how ‘disengagement’ was agreed ahead of BRICS meeting this weekend
PUBLISHED : Monday, 28 August, 2017, 3:04pm
UPDATED : Monday, 28 August, 2017, 11:26pm
COMMENTS: 222


Liu Zhen
Laura Zhou

26 Aug 2017 (SCMP)
China said India had pulled its troops from the Chinese side of a disputed Himalayan border area on Monday afternoon, after a months-long stand-off.
THIS WEEK IN ASIA

Earlier in the day, India’s foreign ministry said it had agreed with China to an “expeditious disengagement” of troops from the Doklam plateau, an area close to the borders of China, India and Bhutan. The announcements come ahead of a meeting of BRICS countries – Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa – in China this weekend. While Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to attend, neither New Delhi nor Beijing has confirmed he will do so.

But each side differs on the details of the “disengagement”. Beijing said Indian troops had pulled back by early afternoon. Indian media reports said the “disengagement” would not be completed on Monday.

“In recent weeks, India and China have maintained diplomatic communication in respect of the incident at Doklam,” India’s Ministry of External Affairs said.

“On this basis, expeditious disengagement of border personnel at the face-off site at Doklam has been agreed to and is ongoing.”

The Chinese foreign ministry said Indian military personnel had pulled out of the Chinese side by 2.30pm on Monday.

“I am pleased to confirm that trespassing Indian personnel have all pulled back to the Indian side of the boundary,” foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying said.

When asked why she had mentioned only the withdrawal of Indian soldiers, Hua said: “The situation at the site has changed, and China will adjust and deploy according to the current situation.”
She added: “Chinese troops continue to patrol on the Chinese side of the boundary” and China would continue to “exercise its sovereign rights and defend territorial sovereignty in accordance with the historical demarcation agreement”.

Indian media reports said both Indian and Chinese troops were slowly being withdrawn from the disputed zone.

India’s NDTV reported that soldiers from both sides had started pulling out, but the process of removing them would not be completed on Monday.

In an earlier position paper, China said that at the peak of the crisis, up to 400 Indian soldiers and two bulldozers were engaged in the confrontation.

Despite the announcements, neither Beijing nor New Delhi mentioned if China had agreed to halt its construction of a road near the disputed border, the project that triggered the dispute.
Chinese navy’s live-fire drill may be warning shot to India amid ongoing Doklam stand-off

Sun Shihai, an expert on South Asia at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said: “There was deliberate ambiguity in the two foreign ministries’ statements. And each side’s media will write the narrative to suit the feelings of their audiences.”

“We don’t know the details. It’s not appropriate to say which side has made the bigger compromise, or who is the winner or loser.”

Rajeev Ranjan Chaturvedy, a research associate at the Institute of South Asian Studies at the National University of Singapore, said officials from both sides had worked hard to defuse the tensions.

“The diplomatic channels were open throughout,” Chaturvedy said. “Withdrawing troops will ease some tension and will provide room for both leaders at the BRICS [summit].”

James Char, an associate research fellow with the China Programme at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore, agreed.

“This is a face-saving measure for China and India, especially given that Xi and Modi are expected to meet in Xiamen,” he said.

The border row started in June when India sent troops to stop China building a road in the Doklam area, a remote, uninhabited territory claimed by both China and Bhutan. India said it sent in troops because Chinese military activity there was a threat to the security of its own northeast region.
But China said India had no role to play in the area and insisted it withdraw unilaterally or face the prospect of an escalation. Chinese state media had warned India of a fate worse than its crushing defeat in the war in 1962.

Li Li, a South Asian affairs expert from the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations in Beijing, said the troop withdrawal would ease tensions for a while, but would not resolve the fundamental dispute the neighbours have over territory.

Would it [a conflict] happen again if Beijing tried to build a road there sometime in the future?” she said. “India and China need to learn how to manage crises and prevent stand-offs from recurring.”
Char said he thought that although the root of the problem would remain, the risk of a serious conflict was very low as both China and India “clearly prioritise their national development over an area of mountainous terrain”.

We can’t discount a similar stand-off happening in the Doklam region in the future, but I believe it won’t be soon,” he said.

“Both sides can be expected to pause their activities in the near to medium term.”
It is never gonna happen again. The Indian military ambushed a bunch of construction workers with no reason to suspect an attack while working on their own country's territory. Had the PLA been there they would have at least KO'd another couple Indians with rocks or flying-kicked them off a hill into dog-eat-shit position at the bottom. Now that the PLA knows how insecure India is about this matter, in the future, they will be ready and waiting alongside the construction crew.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It is never gonna happen again. The Indian military ambushed a bunch of construction workers with no reason to suspect an attack while working on their own country's territory. Had the PLA been there they would have at least KO'd another couple Indians with rocks or flying-kicked them off a hill into dog-eat-shit position at the bottom. Now that the PLA knows how insecure India is about this matter, in the future, they will be ready and waiting alongside the construction crew.

It was a PLA combat engineer unit that was building the road, not civilian construction workers. So the PLA was involved from the start.

However, the Indians did spring an abmush of sorts by bringing 300 armed troops (which they had time to organise because Beijing told them in good faith about the planned roadworks in advance, twice). While the Chinese road building team would have numbered far fewer, and almost certainly not been armed.

Had the PLA started something then and there, they would have come off worse off, so it was sensible and the right call and hold firm and wait for backup.

I am sure there are plenty of PLA troopers who would love to do as you suggested and just shoot trespassing Indian soldiers on sight. However, Beijing should be the ones who make the call on whether there will be a war, and not some hothead kid on the front lines. So the PLA's RoE are very restrictive.

It is undoubtably frustrating for the PLA troops, but better a little frustration than needless bloodshed and war.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is the full text of Foreign ministry statement and Q&A session afterward No where do I see China will stop working on the road but the indian press spin it as if India give
China face saving way out. BTW they are quiet now after week of chest thumping
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Q: The Indian side said that it is a "mutual disengagement". Do you agree with that?

A: What I want to stress is that the Indian side withdrew all its border personnel and equipment that were illegally on the Chinese territory to the Indian side. The Chinese personnel onsite have verified this situation. The Chinese border troops continue patrolling the Dong Lang area. China will continue fulfilling its sovereign rights to safeguard territorial sovereignty in compliance with the stipulations of the border-related historical treaty. In the meantime, in light of the changing landscape on the ground, China will make necessary adjustments and deployment as it sees fit.

Q: Can you confirm that the Indian personnels have already left or they are in the process of leaving?

A: I am pleased to confirm that the Indian border personnel and equipment have all been withdrawn to the Indian side of the border.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
It was a PLA combat engineer unit that was building the road, not civilian construction workers. So the PLA was involved from the start.

However, the Indians did spring an abmush of sorts by bringing 300 armed troops (which they had time to organise because Beijing told them in good faith about the planned roadworks in advance, twice). While the Chinese road building team would have numbered far fewer, and almost certainly not been armed.

Had the PLA started something then and there, they would have come off worse off, so it was sensible and the right call and hold firm and wait for backup.

I am sure there are plenty of PLA troopers who would love to do as you suggested and just shoot trespassing Indian soldiers on sight. However, Beijing should be the ones who make the call on whether there will be a war, and not some hothead kid on the front lines. So the PLA's RoE are very restrictive.

It is undoubtably frustrating for the PLA troops, but better a little frustration than needless bloodshed and war.
What is a "combat engineer unit?" I don't understand the term. How is it a combat unit if they weren't armed? Like I said, India ambushed a team of unarmed construction workers with no reason to believe they would be attacked or they would not have been unguarded/unprepared to fight.

If the PLA had anticipated the reaction, there is no way India could have gotten an inch of progress. Those 300 fellas would have climbed up a hill to 1,000 armed troops with combat vehicles and they'd be left with the, "Oh, is this Bhutan? We took a wrong turn, sorry." And left LOL
 
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SinoSoldier

Colonel
Indian news is reporting that the Chinese have removed bulldozers and road-constructing machinery. Seems that, unless the Chinese are merely pausing construction of their road, India has won this round without firing a shot.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Indian news is reporting that the Chinese have removed bulldozers and road-constructing machinery. Seems that, unless the Chinese are merely pausing construction of their road, India has won this round without firing a shot.

As usual Indian press lie to their teeth The foreign minister statement clearly said China exercise full authority on Donglam and continue with patrol while the Indian withdraw their troop. There is vague promise to reduce the number of troop as they see fit. that is all

There is no independent source to confirm it of road construction removal
 

Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Indian news is reporting that the Chinese have removed bulldozers and road-constructing machinery. Seems that, unless the Chinese are merely pausing construction of their road, India has won this round without firing a shot.
Oh come on. Why would you trust the veracity of Indian sources over everyone else? And please tell me how India "won this round without firing a shot". India was the first to unilaterally withdraw from Doklam, and did so under mounting Chinese pressure and scrutiny. Isn't the first belligerent to leave the battlefield technically the "victor"? And the reason for the construction delay is quite simple; winter is approaching and infrastructural construction in the Himalayas typically slows down during this time. But this does not alter the facts; the Indians were the first party to unilaterally announce their withdraw and did so without any preconditions. Even if we take this dubious report seriously, we do not know what the reason for this delay may be (a host of issues honestly). In my opinion, India suffered a defeat equal to that of 1962 because the PLA did not have to expend any ammunition to force an Indian retreat.

Sun Tzu : "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting".
 
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