India incursion and Chinese standoff at Dolam, Bhutan

Status
Not open for further replies.

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
FYI the media needs to sell news, although im not saying that what they report is wrong. But when i read the news about the korean nuclear crisis, all i see is blustering and posturing from the US side and NK side. After so much heated rhetoric, there have been no reporting of any military being prepared to start any military intervention in the region, so far. Behind the scenes, all sides know that there are no aceptable military options for this situation. But its understandable that its important in these ocasions for governments to have tough words toward each other in order to scare the other side and for internal consumption.
First of all, you're not "behind the scenes," so you are not qualified to comment. You are the most ordinary person in the world and you know nothing beyond what the media tells you. That you think everything here is just tough talk and nothing could possibly happen is your opinion, supported by nothing. Your opinion is literally worth 1 out of 7.5 billion in this world; it is infinitesimal and inconsequential. So you can express it, but by no means sell it as a "behind the scenes" look beyond what media tells the common people. You ARE the common people.

I know you don't believe the news because you think your imagination is the end-all-be-all of facts but here's another article about US preparing B-1 to strike North Korean missile sites.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

It's really for other people, not for you because you can't learn and you'll just say something stupid again like, "Oh, no that doesn't count because it's routine planning." LOL That's pretty much what you said last time I tried to enlighten your ignorance by showing you evidence that the US moved 3 aircraft carriers and X nuclear submarines towards North Korea, which it has never done before since the Korean War.

That said, it is also my opinion, that in these current circumstances, neither the US nor North Korea will attack each other, however, I could be wrong and I can't take that chance. If China is not ready to respond, the calculus shifts dramatically towards the probability of armed conflict started by the US. So China needs to be ready to deter it. Even then, I cannot fully guarantee that armed conflict will not happen. If it does, and China is not ready because it thought that armed conflict would be unlikely, then who will take responsibility for the consequences? You? LOL If China pulls its eastern troops to the west then US ends North Korea and takes it over, then what will you say? "Oh shit, I'm sorry. I didn't think that would happen." Can you take responsibility and make the US/SK back up to south of the 38th parallel again? No? You don't have the ability to take responsibility? Then shut up; nobody needs your advice. China will stand ready because we cannot afford to take even 1% chance that conflict will happen without us being prepared.
 
Last edited:

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
LOL @Jura ... You highlight your own dubious credibility by being so vehemently defensive and accusatory in denying your own words which I quoted verbatim. ...
This poster established his sociopathic personality traits here looooooong ago! Your ignore list is the best place for him! My SDF experience is much more enjoyable by my not being exposed to his 'contributions'.
 
LOL I quickly scrambled something you'll tore apart (and while tearing it apart, note all the points need to be considered together):
  • China is right in its claim, based on the Treaty of Calcutta, related to the current China-India border (I checked this myself in the closed thread: #174 Jura, Jul 14, 2017), BUT Bhutan wasn't a party to the Treaty of Calcutta
  • China has been negotiating about its border with Bhutan for decades, the Doklam Plateau has been among disputed areas Yesterday at 1:55 PM
  • China might claim much larger area to the east from the Doklam Plateau based on the basin of the Torsa River (I presume that's historic-Tibet territory, right?); I found myself a Chinese map presenting that larger area Today at 10:55 AM
  • I don't know what's the basis of the Bhutanese claim to the Doklam Plateu, BUT Bhutan has had a military installation in Batang La area, which is close to the CURRENT trijunction point Aug 6, 2017 it's particularly interesting in connection with point 2 above, isn't it?: why China didn't protest it for example last Summer??
  • Bhutan has numerous other border disputes with China, so if Bhutan backs off now in the Doklam Plateau, it'll be loosing the other areas, too
  • Bhutan wouldn't stand a chance against China, so it cooperates with India, but only this week the Foreing Ministers (China: Mrs. Sushma Swaraj; Bhutan: Mr. Damcho Dorji) met (and only in Kathmandu, Nepal)
  • If India leaves the Doklam Plateau now, China will be firmly established there (of course India doesn't consider the Doklam Plateau to be Chinese; India considers the Doklam Plateau to be Bhutanese)
I go to bed now

If the complete picture is to be considered then consider these points:

- China was about to construct a road within an area under its control, even though it is disputed by Bhutan, and abiding mutually agreed protocol informed India twice ahead of time. First about a month before, then again two weeks before planned construction. There was no response from India until its surprise military incursion across the mutually agreed China-India border to physically interfere with Chinese personnel and construction then Indian forces stayed to occupy the area.

- Bhutan and China have been negotiating to settle their territorial claims, India was hostile to these negotiations and have made multiple attempts to interfere while overriding Bhutan's own desires.

- China's pattern of settling territorial claims have been both give and take with the other parties both large and small, the same has been expected of Bhutan-China negotiations regarding their territorial claims.

So your opinion that if Bhutan backs off now it will lose all its claims to China is unsound. It is also a mischaracterization of the incident because China is not attempting to settle a claim of the area but merely to construct a road, or to be more accurate improve an existing one. India is the one who without a doubt unilaterally changed the status quo and violated existing agreements by crossing a formerly mutually agreed border and occupying territory it has no claims to. Therefore it is China who stands to fear losing all its claims if it backs off now due to a surprise incursion and occupation by a third party into disputed territory that was under China's control.

- China is only demanding India to leave the area, it did not say whether it will still construct or improve the road or not.

If India leaves the area now then it is merely a return to the status quo prior to India's incursion. Your opinion that if India leaves the area now then China will be firmly established there implying it is somehow more beneficial to China than before is China-threat spin of merely a return to the status quo prior to India's incursion.

- Whether Bhutan stands a chance against China in what way or whether they come to agreement and settlement somehow, how willingly or not Bhutan is cooperating with India and whose plans and interests are really being pursued with Indian actions, are all speculative based on publicly available information.
 

Orthan

Senior Member
First of all, you're not "behind the scenes," so you are not qualified to comment. You are the most ordinary person in the world and you know nothing beyond what the media tells you. That you think everything here is just tough talk and nothing could possibly happen is your opinion, supported by nothing.

Im not "behind the scenes" but i analyse news and have been doing it for many many years. I have learned that in international politics what counts more is not what governments say but what they do. I have learned to believe more what (some) independent experts say than what politicians say. Even military exercices made in times of crisis tend to be more posture and scare tactic than real danger.

The US makes exercices with 3 carriers off korea and then what? where are they now? donald trump makes waves with his "fire and fury" and then what? Even tom bossert, white house advisor, has said that trump hasnt draw any red lines about the NK nuclear issue.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I know you don't believe the news because you think your imagination is the end-all-be-all of facts but here's another article about US preparing B-1 to strike North Korean missile sites.

This article that you present has nothing new. It just reports that the US has a plan to bomb NK with B-1 bombers. It doesnt say anything about any attack being iminent. The US always has military plans draw in peace time. Or do you think that the pentagon military planners are enjoying permanent vacations in peace time and only go to work in crisis times?

Your opinion is literally worth 1 out of 7.5 billion in this world; it is infinitesimal and inconsequential.
Look who´s talking
 

tidalwave

Senior Member
Registered Member
That said, it is also my opinion, that in these current circumstances, neither the US nor North Korea will attack each other, however, I could be wrong and I can't take that chance. If China is not ready to respond, the calculus shifts dramatically towards the probability of armed conflict started by the US. So China needs to be ready to deter it. Even then, I cannot fully guarantee that armed conflict will not happen. If it does, and China is not ready because it thought that armed conflict would be unlikely, then who will take responsibility for the consequences? You? LOL If China pulls its eastern troops to the west then US ends North Korea and takes it over, then what will you say? "Oh shit, I'm sorry. I didn't think that would happen." Can you take responsibility and make the US/SK back up to south of the 38th parallel again? No? You don't have the ability to take responsibility? Then shut up; nobody needs your advice. China will stand ready because we cannot afford to take even 1% chance that conflict will happen without us being prepared.

Haha, bitch, for a rare occasion, I have to agree with you on that one.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Im not "behind the scenes" but i analyse news and have been doing it for many many years. I have learned that in international politics what counts more is not what governments say but what they do. I have learned to believe more what (some) independent experts say than what politicians say. Even military exercices made in times of crisis tend to be more posture and scare tactic than real danger.

The US makes exercices with 3 carriers off korea and then what? where are they now? donald trump makes waves with his "fire and fury" and then what? Even tom bossert, white house advisor, has said that trump hasnt draw any red lines about the NK nuclear issue.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




This article that you present has nothing new. It just reports that the US has a plan to bomb NK with B-1 bombers. It doesnt say anything about any attack being iminent. The US always has military plans draw in peace time. Or do you think that the pentagon military planners are enjoying permanent vacations in peace time and only go to work in crisis times?

Look who´s talking
Once again, you are very very confused. You erroneously believe that the argument between us is that I think there will be war over Korea and you think there won't be. Because of your lack of ability in reading comprehension, you are wrong. I'm saying that I also think that there will LIKELY be no war over Korea but China can't take the chance that one does erupt. I highlighted the "tend to be" in your passage to demonstrate that you also think that there is a small chance. Please re-read the part of my last post that for some reason, you decided to skip:

"That said, it is also my opinion, that in these current circumstances, neither the US nor North Korea will attack each other, however, I could be wrong and I can't take that chance. If China is not ready to respond, the calculus shifts dramatically towards the probability of armed conflict started by the US. So China needs to be ready to deter it. Even then, I cannot fully guarantee that armed conflict will not happen. If it does, and China is not ready because it thought that armed conflict would be unlikely, then who will take responsibility for the consequences? You? LOL If China pulls its eastern troops to the west then US ends North Korea and takes it over, then what will you say? "Oh shit, I'm sorry. I didn't think that would happen." Can you take responsibility and make the US/SK back up to south of the 38th parallel again? No? You don't have the ability to take responsibility? Then shut up; nobody needs your advice. China will stand ready because we cannot afford to take even 1% chance that conflict will happen without us being prepared."
 
Last edited:

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Haha, bitch, for a rare occasion, I have to agree with you on that one.
Ah, that's probably because you weren't educated enough to fully understand what I wrote and you probably thought that I wanted to declare war on everyone at the same time in "the spirit of Mao." Sadly you're mistaken; that's not what I meant. High school degree is required to agree with me. Please don't next time.
 
Last edited:

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


So I came across
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
2015 news report, some days ago. A piece that I found ‘very’ interesting. The headline is catchy enough – ‘UN peacekeepers refused to help as aid workers were raped in South Sudan’. But it is the second part of the headline that caught my eye – Chinese troops abandoned their posts rather than engage in fighting and protect civilians.

Interesting, I thought. Did a little more digging around on the ‘www’ and came across another nugget of ‘very’ interesting information. Will come to that in the latter part of this blog post. But first let me share some thoughts on the piece above.

Firstly let us talk about the facts listed out in the news report above:-

  • The Chinese peacekeepers were entrusted with the responsibility of a one civilian protection site in Juba.
  • In the month of July 2015, fierce attacks were mounted by one of the rebel groups in Sudan, leading to ‘tens of thousands’ of civilians seeking safety from successive bouts of fighting, at that site.
  • However, the Chinese peacekeepers stayed on in their bases rather than protect civilians.Heck, even the Ethiopian troops had done far better, helping evacuate wounded civilians and returning fire when needed.
  • On the last day of the fighting, about 80 to 100 government soldiers attacked a compound in Juba where they raped and gang-raped at least five international aid workers and physically or sexually assaulted at least a dozen others.
  • All this happened when there was a UN Base manned by Chinese peacekeepers only a few hundred metres from the compound. However despite dozens of appeals for help from the besieged aid workers and personal visits from at least one who escaped from the compound, the Chinese peacekeepers simply REFUSED to leave the safety of their base.
  • During four days of fighting between the rival forces, artillery rounds and gunfire hit two UN bases, killing two Chinese peacekeepers. And what did the vaunted PLA troopers do? They not only failed to return fire, but in fact, RAN AWAY FROM THEIR POST. To add insult to injury, in their haste to save their skins, they even left behind their weapons and ammo – something a professional soldier would not even dream of doing. EVER.
So here is what I make of the entire issue – The PLA soldier didn’t move out of the safety of his compound, favouring his personal safety over his responsibility to his fellow human beings. To some extent (and I say this ‘coz I am not entirely aware of the rules of engagement they were bound by), this might be explained by the rules of engagement that MIGHT have prevented them from interfering in the factional fighting in the area. MIGHT have, ‘coz I am not sure it actually prevented them. More on that in the latter part of this piece. However, even the refusal to fire back in self-defence, more so when two of their comrades had been fatally wounded, reeks of cowardice. And then the biggest ignominy a professional soldier can heap upon himself – they abandoned their posts and ran away. Not only that, they left behind their weapons and ammo.

An entire post cowering behind the apparent safety of their compound walls instead of discharging their duty when humanity is being raped and murdered all around. When the compound too becomes unsafe, they just ran away! And this is the kind of manpower with which the PRC threatens the battle hardened Indian Army today!

Now coming to another interesting nugget I discovered when searching for more info on this incident. I came across
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
report. It was the Indian Army that actually saved them. The report itself doesn’t mention the abandonment of posts by the PLA peacekeepers. Very ‘convenient’ omission, I say.

However, as per the report, INDBATT II, comprised by men from the 7th Battalion, of the Kumaon Regiment, who were held in reserve, were asked to take charge and restore the situation, which they did with extreme professionalism and ruthlessness. Here’s a typically modest way the news report chose to describe their actions – ‘It was learnt that troops also secured the perimeter which was smashed by the IDPs and ensured the armed militiamen were weeded out.’ Yes, they ‘secured’ the perimeter and ensured the armed militiamen were ‘weeded out’. Such ‘modesty’ is typical of the way in which the Indian media’s undersells the achievements of its own countrymen. Or perhaps, something that they are so used to from the Indian Army, that they take it as a matter of course– Send in Indian troops, job will be done.

Btw, it was the same militiamen who had ‘scared the hell’ out of the famed PLA troops and routed them that the Kumaonis calmly ‘weeded out’. Rest of the report makes for an interesting read too.

So here it is. An Army that fought its last war in 1979, an army that has ‘won’ against an outsider only once in 5000 years of its nation’s history, in 1962, was exposed for what it was – shiny toys and scared brats afraid to wield them when time comes. (Regarding the ‘war experience’ of the PLA, that is for another time which will come soon).

Sabre rattling in front of apparently weaker neighbours is fine, but god save you if the ‘weaker’ neighbour draws out his own sword!

(Oh, btw, the title of the photograph of PLA Peacekeepers posted on top of this blog, in The Guardian report is – ‘Peacekeeping troops in South Sudan ‘underperformed’ during violence in July.’)

’nuff said!

How accurate is the claim that Indian troops saved PLA servicemen during a rebel attack in South Sudan? Few reports detail the abandonment and routing of Chinese UN peacekeepers during the assault.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


How accurate is the claim that Indian troops saved PLA servicemen during a rebel attack in South Sudan? Few reports detail the abandonment and routing of Chinese UN peacekeepers during the assault.

BS I never heard about it and the western press never report it
If that is true the western press will be all over it. There were no action on UN peace keeping force because the commanding officer I believe he is Kenyan general refuse to approve the participation of UN forces in fire fight He was release of duty afterward
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Never trust anything that come out of India. Like this meeting that never occured
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Dokalam standoff: Indian Army and Chinese PLA meet that never happened
By
Shaurya Karanbir Gurung
, ET Bureau|
Updated: Aug 13, 2017, 11.55 PM IS ..

NEW DELHI: A crucial meeting between the Indian Army and Chinese PLA in Nathu La, which was scheduled to take place on Friday to defuse the Dokalam standoff, didn’t happen. A senior government official said: “The arrangements were made for the meeting from our side, but the Chinese didn’t show up. They (China) were undecided on attending it.”

ET had earlier reported that a high-level meeting between the Major General-level officers of the Indian Army and PLA was scheduled to take pl ..

Read more at:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top