Ideal PLAN missile boat

Gollevainen said:

But the sad reality is that they arent.

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Actually, I think they are more capable than you give them credit for. It just depends on what they are wanting to accomplish. Under heavy land based air cover and with the support of their other new, modern large surface combatants, they will be able to provide a signifcant punch and threat in the littoral Chinese waters even when confronting a more capable naval foe. When dealing with less capable foes, they have isgnificant capability particularly if they are data linked.

It's sort of like the LCS the US Navy is building. many here (including myself at first) felt they are not strong enough...but when you consider that they will not be acting alone, their utility and capability add up.

planeman said:

Rather predictably I'm the first to contribute a pretty picture. This is a bit off the wall and not really what I originally had in mind, but I think a reasonable case can be made in its favour:

The main enhancement is stealth, allowing these mini-FACs to pounce on their prey unexpected, or at least with minimal warning.

Four C-702 or TL-10A lightweight anti-ship missiles are carried in stealthy angled silos behind the cabin which is itself arranged more like a fighterplane than a conventional boat. Four crew; Commander, driver, weapons system operator and engineer (two large speedboat outboard motors...) are all housed in the main cabin with minimal living space.

I've also added a VLS in the forward position which could be SA-15 SAM although I think that's too ambitious for a hull this size.

My illustration lacks some of the sensors and trimmings that would be required; just imagine them in place.

This design trades endurance and seaworthiness for speed, cheapness and compactness. Imagine how many of these add up to the price of just one normal FAC.

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Interesting concept (is this your work?) but I think there are a couple issues. For starters it looks too top heavy. Working a little with smaller cats they are great hulls but if you're in a sea over 8' with a honkin' 40-50kt wind (happens often enough where I live) you're going to be puking guts. You can't always chose when you have to go out. All that weight ass end, lots of sail area (somewhat mitigated by twin hulls). Guys will be blowing chunks all over the electronics... Also does not look like enough height for the mini VLS, even if there was, too close to the (combustible fiberglass) bridge.

Ships aren't my area at all, so I'll accept your comments with grace
My only experience of going out to sea in a small boat was on an MBT - forerunner of modern FACs ,,, and yes I puked my guts up the whole time.

Seaworthiness is an issue. Interesting that Iran is the only customer of the China Cat - I presume they intend to use it in the persian gulf. What do you think of wave-piecing bows? I read that they are the answer to putting a small boat out in choppy seas - hence my second concept being a VSV.

As a minor point, the upper surfaces would not be fibre-glass as that is partially radar transparent which surprisingly is the last thing you want with stealth. Non-radar-transparent comosites like on the Visby class are expensive, so I'd go for lower-end aircraft alloys - but these come with spray damage issues(?). Either way I agree that the VLS is a bit optimistic.

You're alloys would likely have corrosion issues...

Check out this boat - it was in town recently but I did not got a chance to check it out...

Yep, corrosion is what I was trying to say about Spray damage. What materials would you recomend? Is "marine alloys" a real word????

Re the Earthrace, cool powerboat:


That looks like a wave-piercing bow with outriggers ... which by trippy coincidence was a thought line I was already pondering, though I go my lead from the concepts put out by the now defunct Kvaerner Shipbuilding of Finland. The outrigger section gives a wide platform ideal for missile tubes - or even a heli-deck on an otherwise too narrow hull. Vosper Thornycroft in UK have played with that idea n their Triton experiental hull although they didn't incorporate a wave-piercing bow which is odd since they have a hand in the VSV and came up with the widely marhetted though not yet bough Sea Wraith concept.

Seacraft, I've quickly sketched a missile boat hull using the general arrangement of the Earthlink but with military application in mind - faceted stealthy lines, a large deck for missiles etc:


What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of this hull form for a missile boat? Would it be blue-water capable?

BTW, one of the big advantages of having outriggers (or a catamaran hull) is that you can vent the engine exhausts between the hull and the outrigger which significantly reduces the IR signiture - the VISBY class does a similar trick by exhausting below the waterline. From what I gather this concept is much better with diesels - venting jet turbines near the waterline must pose more problems(?)

Looks interesting but I faintly see the basic design of the US's LCS built by Austal. Wonder if they were getting their concepts from the same inspirations?

planeman said:

a) I agree that its air defence is poor - though not very unusual for FACs.
b) Whilst the missile fit of 2x4 YJ-83 is better than past PLAN FACs, it's not as potent as many other FACs out there. It would be better with YJ-62, SS-N-22 Sunburn or SS-N-27 Klub. And ideally even a second tier of IIR/TV guided short rangfe missiles for littorial combat - like C-702s or TL-10s.

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Pretty good idea, it would be interesting to have different types of missiles equipped on FAC. I'm not sure how hard it is to change missile launchers. But as for IIR/TV guided missile, I suppose they can always change the seeker on the YJ-83.

Israeli Saar 3~4.5 missile boats have had both Harpoon and Gabriel SSMs for some time but these use completely seperate launch bins for the two types. A better solution is to have a bin which can accept tubes for a variety of missiles, not unlike the Mk 41 VLS but in a slant launch format. The main limitation is the sensors/systems to support numerous missile types in such a small hull. But the systems to target/launch/control something like C-702 must be very small and light as it is carried by China Cat FACs. Equipping the FAC to fire both YJ-62 and JY-83 might be more complex and would involve greater duplication of comparable but different systems.

Another thought track coming out of this is a multi-tier fleet of the same hull type. Top tier vessels would have YJ-62 and C-702 (/TL-10) SSMs, whilst second Tier vessels would carry YJ-83s (...cheaper, more readily available) and C-702s. In some instances vessels would be equipped with only one type of SSM based on fleet needs/availablity etc - for example just YJ-62s for ocean strike role or just C-702s for littorial patrol. All vessels within the class would be capable of carrying all types of missile, the difference being in the "plug and play" fire control/systems modules fitted. Sound like a good idea?

One operating economy of this idea is that the PLAN could by say 10 hulls but just 6 YJ-62 system modules, 6 YJ-83 system modules, 6 C-702 system modules etc. That way they could juggle the systems between hulls, maximising YJ-62 usage even when hulls are in refit or non-combat ready time.

Computer simulation software could be used to allow the crew to maintain profficiency on all missile systems even if litterally no missiles were presently carried.

tphuang said:

Pretty good idea, it would be interesting to have different types of missiles equipped on FAC. I'm not sure how hard it is to change missile launchers. But as for IIR/TV guided missile, I suppose they can always change the seeker on the YJ-83.

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Actually, has anyone seen any pics of the stealth FACs with their missile boxes open and loaded? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't we still all speculating at this point as to what they've loaded these FACs with? Could there be any possibility that they've decided to build modularity into these ships? So each FAC could be carrying different missiles specific to a mission?

Going on a little tangent here but everyone has pointed out that the stealth FACs have such a small radar mast, it's sight is limited. Would it make any sense to build a height adjustable mast? Sorta like a sub with its periscope? Also, does anyone think they will expand on the current stealth FAC, meaning making it longer and more displacement for other roles? Maybe sorta like a mothership to coordinate a wolfpack of FACs?