Ideal PLAN missile boat

I think you've overlooked one issue with this statement. You're assuming the 022 as a last line of defense where opposing naval forces have dismantled PLAN's blue navy. But a skirmish in the Spratly's could be one of limited engagement. If it was China vs Vietnam, there's no endurance issue with the 022. The countries are right next to each other and the 022s can dart across in raids. In the last naval skirmish between the two in the 80s, I think only small "frigates", if you could even call them that by modern standards, were engaged in the limited battle. As for Philippines or Malaysia, the 022s wouldn't be used to reach their shores but the 022s can be based on the Spratly Islands that China current occupies. They have built little garrisons out there, why not station some 022s there to beef it up? Some of these garrisons have airfields so there is limited air cover.

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Spartlys are well to deep in the open sea, that using missile FACs would only mean similar humiliation as in 1974...these boats are useless in open ocean confontrations and their capilityes comes handy in near shore, when they can use the coast-line and its geographics as suplement cover. Again, they lack the endurance and sea keeping for open sea operations. FACs in spartlys are usefull in solely defending the isles themselves, but not in practically anything else, expecially when PLAN does have better units to suit for the operations....
I Keep wondering, what sort of image do you have on coastal defences and boat size vessels capilities at first place, as you post something like this??

I question the effectiveness of the 022 outside of Mainland chinese territorial waters. In Mainland Chinese territorial waters, two important assets come into play, and these are offboard targeting support and air cover. Air cover is important for the 022's survival, since it lacks sufficient anti-air defenses. In addition, the 022 relies to a large extent on offboard targeting for its survivability, since that allows it to fire from over the horizon, and that means that it denies its enemies a chance to target it (assuming the enemy does not have over the horizon targeting assets themselves).

That brings us to the Spratlys. Here there is no offboard targeting support upon which the 022 can rely on, forcing it to close to within the enemy vessel's range in order to shoot. Add to that the fact that the Spratlys are in range of air support from these other nations like Malaysia, Philippines etc, and I can see the 022 FAC becoming mincemeat when faced with Malaysia's Sea Skua equipped Lynxes.

This is my concept of a missile boat. It is based more on the American DD(X) and swedish visby class concept. It has concealed guns and a DD(X) style bow and is powered by electrical engines. can be equiped with HQ-9 and YJ-8 missiles along with a Ka-28 for anti-submarine purposes.

Re the practicality of adding a VLS for short range SAMs to the Type-022.

The Tor (SA-N-9/SA-15) is 2.9m long (say 3m with casing) and less than 0.25m in diameter. It weighs 167kg so 8 missiles have a net weight of 1336kg. We know that with the SA-15 ground based system, the tracked vehicle includes the search radar, targeting radar, 8 missiles and all the relevant control systems.... and weighs 34,000kg. So, if we subtract the vehicle itself, it seems reasonable to guess that the entire system weighs about 20,000kg including missiles(?).

Here's an artist's impression of a type-022 with SA-N-9 in VLS added amidships, with fire control radar mounted between the missile boxes.

prhph....Its like banging head against the wall...
not to bother to take consern the issue that ill famous Cross Sword radar set has coused topweigth proplems to even Udaloy sized destroyers...not to mention less than 500 ton catamaran. And it was desinged to be fielded by 1124 class small ASW corvettes of 800 tons, but the fit was cancelled as the radar itself couldn't be fitted to the ship, not to mentiont that the vibration in high speeds have very negative effect on Soviet point defence SAMs in ligth frigate size ships....No offense, but you just cannot pic empty spot on boats hull and place there what ever you want. You guys should serously consider some shipbuilding basics -class

Golly sez;

No offense, but you just cannot pic empty spot on boats hull and place there what ever you want. You guys should serously consider some shipbuilding basics -class

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Exactly! You just can't put any sort of system on a FAC. It's mission and size limits it operations to costal(Littoral) waters. They should be light and fast. Able to strike and retreat quickly so they may fight another day.

The 022 is a good ship if it is used as designed. It was more than likely never intended to go to "blue waters"

You fellows have good basic design ideas and this thread is intresting.

I still think Golly is seeing the problems not feeling out the solutions, but one aspect there might be some common ground is in MISSION CREAP. This is the real concern for upper-tier FACs IMO. The analogy is the fundementally floored Battlecruiser concept adopted by the Royal Navy at the turn of the last century - which ultimately led to the HMS Hood, "Britain's mightiest battleship", being sunk with great loss of life. The story goes that she wasn't really a battleship - "battlecruisers" traded armour for speed so she was in no position to go toe to toe with a real battleship like the Bismark. BUT because she had speed and firepower admirals were intoxicated and forgot her hidden handicap. They used battlecruisers as battleships.

The same is true of FACs. A commander, eager to maximise his force potential may be tempted to employ FACs outside the scope of their conception, placing them in roles to which they are not suited and in situations they cannot win.

BUT, thath does not invalidate the missile boat concept, nor the natural drive to enhance capability, just the doctrine of employment.

I sea blue-water operations as the natural growth area of light/agile strike assets, but within a scope that does not see them replacing frigates, even IF they are in truth more capable than some of the Frigates still employed by the PLAN.

To make an FAC ocean-capable it needs a wave piercing bow (IMO), else it needs to be bigger in which case it becomes a multi-role corvette and then gets used as a Frigate..... mission creap = bad bad bad. Light frigates/corvettes to replace the Jianghus is another thread.... maybe next week

A bit random, but here's a size comparison of existing PLAN missile boats:

Gollevainen said:

Spartlys are well to deep in the open sea, that using missile FACs would only mean similar humiliation as in 1974...these boats are useless in open ocean confontrations and their capilityes comes handy in near shore, when they can use the coast-line and its geographics as suplement cover. Again, they lack the endurance and sea keeping for open sea operations. FACs in spartlys are usefull in solely defending the isles themselves, but not in practically anything else, expecially when PLAN does have better units to suit for the operations....
I Keep wondering, what sort of image do you have on coastal defences and boat size vessels capilities at first place, as you post something like this??

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My image of coastal defence and boat size capabilities are no different than yours. I don't see the 022s as something that's blue water capable, nor do I see them as capable of any major offensive far from home waters. For the most part, I see 022s being kept within China's home territorial waters.

But I do see 022s useful in the Spratlys as a defensive unit and for limited engagements. I repeat, limited. The sea battle in '74 used boats of similar size so it shows that something like the 022 can be used well in this setting. I don't know the average depth of the South China Sea but I don't consider waters around the Spratlys as open seas, that area is littered with atolls, reefs, and shallow waters, something a catamaran would do well in. You can't really base a frigate out there long term but a FAC would work. Plus, having a large ship out there would seem to send a major signal to the other countries of hostilities but a small FAC would be enough of a deterrent. It's not like the garrisons out there are sealed off from contact. Should something escalate into a bigger issue, backup, blue navy, can always be dispatched. I'm not saying the purpose of the 022 is for Spratlys but I used the Spratlys as an example of where the 022 may be useful.

Kongo said:

I question the effectiveness of the 022 outside of Mainland chinese territorial waters. In Mainland Chinese territorial waters, two important assets come into play, and these are offboard targeting support and air cover. Air cover is important for the 022's survival, since it lacks sufficient anti-air defenses. In addition, the 022 relies to a large extent on offboard targeting for its survivability, since that allows it to fire from over the horizon, and that means that it denies its enemies a chance to target it (assuming the enemy does not have over the horizon targeting assets themselves).

That brings us to the Spratlys. Here there is no offboard targeting support upon which the 022 can rely on, forcing it to close to within the enemy vessel's range in order to shoot. Add to that the fact that the Spratlys are in range of air support from these other nations like Malaysia, Philippines etc, and I can see the 022 FAC becoming mincemeat when faced with Malaysia's Sea Skua equipped Lynxes.

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If you base 022s out in the Spratlys, you can provide offboard targetting support. For instance, Fiery Cross Reef is occupied by China. They claim they have no troops there yet they've built a navy harbor, an airstrip, and an observation tower there. It's not that hard to add a strong radar, SAM, and maybe base two fighters out there. The 022 does have datalink so I don't see why it can't work in conjunction with the garrision. I'm not saying the 022 can then make major offensive assaults but rather defense of the garrison and maybe raids such as to enemy shipping. The major shipping lanes aren't that far away.

joshuatree said:

If you base 022s out in the Spratlys, you can provide offboard targetting support. For instance, Fiery Cross Reef is occupied by China. They claim they have no troops there yet they've built a navy harbor, an airstrip, and an observation tower there. It's not that hard to add a strong radar, SAM, and maybe base two fighters out there. The 022 does have datalink so I don't see why it can't work in conjunction with the garrision. I'm not saying the 022 can then make major offensive assaults but rather defense of the garrison and maybe raids such as to enemy shipping. The major shipping lanes aren't that far away.

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I think the argument against 022 isnt that it cant perform what you just mentioned, but rather that it would be wiser for China to build a bigger corvett class vessel. Given the security situation in the South China Sea, China wouldnt need 022. The PLAN blue water fleet can destroy most of its adversary, leaving little action of the missle boat. But when fighting against Japan or US, these missile boat will be too vulverable to do any damage. The situation you are thinking of probably wouldnt happen, i mean why would PLAN send in 022s when it has bigger guns in its arsenal.

I'm curious to know if there is a chinese equivelent of US Coast guard, and what kinda of ship does it uses for anti-smuggling/anti-piracy operation.