Ideal PLAN missile boat

K

Kongo

Junior Member
If you base 022s out in the Spratlys, you can provide offboard targetting support. For instance, Fiery Cross Reef is occupied by China. They claim they have no troops there yet they've built a navy harbor, an airstrip, and an observation tower there. It's not that hard to add a strong radar, SAM, and maybe base two fighters out there. The 022 does have datalink so I don't see why it can't work in conjunction with the garrision. I'm not saying the 022 can then make major offensive assaults but rather defense of the garrison and maybe raids such as to enemy shipping. The major shipping lanes aren't that far away.
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With China trying to improve its image as a benign power, any more addition to firepower on the Spratlys would be seen as provocative, especially after the agreement with the other nations to resolve the Spratly issues through discussions.

maybe base two fighters out there.
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It will sound harsh, but I must call this out to be a downright ridiculous suggestion.

Personally, I think it does not make more sense to station any more vessels in the area. Should there be a need for military presence, the best option would be to send Jianghus, Jiangweis or Ludas. These would be the perfect platforms in my opinion, better than the 022s for the likely scenario of a faceoff. They are well equipped with guns, which are good for firing a warning shot across the bow of any intruder vessel. The 022 has no such gun other than the CIWS. Should the need to escalate the engagement arise, then since the Jianghus/Jiangweis and Ludas are likely already within close proximity of the enemy vessels, and the firepower from the guns would be more valuable than the missiles, which are probably not able to be fired since the enemy vessel is likely to be within minimum range. If they are not, the Jianghus/Jiangweis and Ludas vessels are still more amply equipped with missiles than the 022 or their likely opposition.
 
planeman

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Ok, this is my Light Missile Corvette I previously posted but rearranged as a replacement for the sub-chaser fleet. It is smaller than it may at first appear because the hanger, which is telescopic, is only tall enough to accomodate 1~2 rotory UAVs.
lightcorvette1bani2.jpg

The hanger takes the place of the rear SAM VLS so the SAMs had to be relocated to just behind the bridge and forward CIWS. The number of short range SAMs (possibly SD-10 derived) has been reduced to 8 from 16. The quad QW-4 SAM launchers have also been reduced from two to one, and it is now placed above the hanger.

The SSM launchers have been removed and replaced by two quad RPK-9 (SS-N-29) ASW missile launchers which are only raised to the firing angle when ready to fire.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
kunmingren said:
I think the argument against 022 isnt that it cant perform what you just mentioned, but rather that it would be wiser for China to build a bigger corvett class vessel. Given the security situation in the South China Sea, China wouldnt need 022. The PLAN blue water fleet can destroy most of its adversary, leaving little action of the missle boat. But when fighting against Japan or US, these missile boat will be too vulverable to do any damage. The situation you are thinking of probably wouldnt happen, i mean why would PLAN send in 022s when it has bigger guns in its arsenal.

I'm curious to know if there is a chinese equivelent of US Coast guard, and what kinda of ship does it uses for anti-smuggling/anti-piracy operation.
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I'm not debating about whether having a 022 based out there is a good idea or not, my original point was to point out an area where the 022 can potentially serve. :D

I think they do have a coast guard but it's no where as well equipped or as well defined as the US Coast Guard. I think they use the type 37 for anti-smuggling/anti-piracy operations.




Kongo said:
With China trying to improve its image as a benign power, any more addition to firepower on the Spratlys would be seen as provocative, especially after the agreement with the other nations to resolve the Spratly issues through discussions.



It will sound harsh, but I must call this out to be a downright ridiculous suggestion.

Personally, I think it does not make more sense to station any more vessels in the area. Should there be a need for military presence, the best option would be to send Jianghus, Jiangweis or Ludas. These would be the perfect platforms in my opinion, better than the 022s for the likely scenario of a faceoff. They are well equipped with guns, which are good for firing a warning shot across the bow of any intruder vessel. The 022 has no such gun other than the CIWS. Should the need to escalate the engagement arise, then since the Jianghus/Jiangweis and Ludas are likely already within close proximity of the enemy vessels, and the firepower from the guns would be more valuable than the missiles, which are probably not able to be fired since the enemy vessel is likely to be within minimum range. If they are not, the Jianghus/Jiangweis and Ludas vessels are still more amply equipped with missiles than the 022 or their likely opposition.
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I agree that with China trying to project a peaceful rise image and having a code of conduct regarding the Spratlys, there won't be any major buildup of forces in that area. But again, my point was that the 022 could serve in that environment, not that it should or would.

I would say stationing planes out there may have little to no chance but I wouldn't say the notion is ridiculous. Vietnam just upgraded one of their island's airstrip under the guise of opening up for tourism but who knows?

Jianghus/Jiangweis and Ludas no doubt carry more firepower and dispatching them there in a time of need would be appropriate. But my hypothetical scenario was to actually base a ship down there. I don't think any of the facilities down there are capable of basing a larger ship like the Jiangs and the Ludas. And regarding your statement, I'm not even aware that there are any ships stationed down there right now. I'm sure there are supply ships and such vessels making visits but stationed?
 
A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
planeman said:
The SSM launchers have been removed and replaced by two quad RPK-9 (SS-N-29) ASW missile launchers which are only raised to the firing angle when ready to fire.
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I think you can prolly install a mix of light ASROC's and light SSM's, or possibly add couple of light ASW torpedos. The pic looks great, but needs towed array sonar.
 
Gollevainen

Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
planeman said:
I still think Golly is seeing the problems not feeling out the solutions, but one aspect there might be some common ground is in MISSION CREAP. This is the real concern for upper-tier FACs IMO. The analogy is the fundementally floored Battlecruiser concept adopted by the Royal Navy at the turn of the last century - which ultimately led to the HMS Hood, "Britain's mightiest battleship", being sunk with great loss of life. The story goes that she wasn't really a battleship - "battlecruisers" traded armour for speed so she was in no position to go toe to toe with a real battleship like the Bismark. BUT because she had speed and firepower admirals were intoxicated and forgot her hidden handicap. They used battlecruisers as battleships.

The same is true of FACs. A commander, eager to maximise his force potential may be tempted to employ FACs outside the scope of their conception, placing them in roles to which they are not suited and in situations they cannot win.

BUT, thath does not invalidate the missile boat concept, nor the natural drive to enhance capability, just the doctrine of employment.

I sea blue-water operations as the natural growth area of light/agile strike assets, but within a scope that does not see them replacing frigates, even IF they are in truth more capable than some of the Frigates still employed by the PLAN.

To make an FAC ocean-capable it needs a wave piercing bow (IMO), else it needs to be bigger in which case it becomes a multi-role corvette and then gets used as a Frigate..... mission creap = bad bad bad. Light frigates/corvettes to replace the Jianghus is another thread.... maybe next week
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well now we start reaching same waves;) the FAC as they first appeared (and really made their depute by sinking the eilat), it made the naval community to do flip overs, as any third rank naval power could theorethically challenge the migthy ones...
But since then, its limitations have come more than apparent and the consensus around those who have devolped the FAC philoshopy agree that they need: 1) more durability/endurance 2) more passive and active ECM to defend themselfs as well as providing force multiplyers to its main weapons 3) capaple AAW 4) Multi-mission requirments
and all those requires space and size....

But should FAC concept grow out to blue water? In my obinion, no. There is the next level of ships, sloops, SRKs, corvettes, old torbedo boats:confused: ...call what you want them, but there has always been the smallest ship class warships to be work horses of the coastal defences in the more deeper oceans and I see no reason why oversized FAC would be better their field???
 
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K

Kongo

Junior Member
I would say stationing planes out there may have little to no chance but I wouldn't say the notion is ridiculous. Vietnam just upgraded one of their island's airstrip under the guise of opening up for tourism but who knows?
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All the support equipment, personnel and consumables needed for sustaining 2 fighters means that the suggestion is ridiculous.

Jianghus/Jiangweis and Ludas no doubt carry more firepower and dispatching them there in a time of need would be appropriate. But my hypothetical scenario was to actually base a ship down there. I don't think any of the facilities down there are capable of basing a larger ship like the Jiangs and the Ludas. And regarding your statement, I'm not even aware that there are any ships stationed down there right now. I'm sure there are supply ships and such vessels making visits but stationed?
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I don't think there is anything more than the odd boat/speedboat stationed in the Spratlys now. Stationing any 022 requires greatly ramping up the facilities there, and as said to do so would be provocative. In fact, there is no need for the 022 to be there, nor would the 022 being there do much good.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Kongo said:
All the support equipment, personnel and consumables needed for sustaining 2 fighters means that the suggestion is ridiculous.
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So when the Americans stationed a few fighters out in the Aleutian Islands, Wake Island (Atoll), and Midway Island, that was a ridiculous idea?
 
A

adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
The PRC currently only occupies 8-12 reefs (depending on how you count them). If you want to base aircraft there, you need to follow Malaysia's example that turend Swallow Reef into Terumbu Layang Layang w/1.5 km airstrip. See pic here:
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That used to be a ring of barren rocks. The Malaysians filled it in with soil and trees, turned it into a 2-km long island.

This is what the PRC has built:
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Which, in my opinion, can prolly support Type 022 FAC's. But to field fixed-wing aircraft you need a long airstrip.


Here's a good collection of photos:
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Click on the left side to see various islands & reefs. Keep in mind that the photos are prolly taken at low tide, and the white colored areas that you might think are beaches, might be shallow water/sandy area that's actually under water.
 
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K

Kongo

Junior Member
joshuatree said:
So when the Americans stationed a few fighters out in the Aleutian Islands, Wake Island (Atoll), and Midway Island, that was a ridiculous idea?
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That was war, while the Spratlys is peaceful. The matter of returns are of a different scale. Also, the amount of support needed for fighters of those days are radically different from the support needed for fighters now, which means that while it coud have been reasonable then to do so, it might not be reasonable to do so now even if the Spratlys situation turned hostile.
 
J

joshuatree

Captain
Kongo said:
That was war, while the Spratlys is peaceful. The matter of returns are of a different scale. Also, the amount of support needed for fighters of those days are radically different from the support needed for fighters now, which means that while it coud have been reasonable then to do so, it might not be reasonable to do so now even if the Spratlys situation turned hostile.
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This is gonna be my last post regarding the Spratlys. I don't want to digress too much from the thread topic.

Wake and Midway had planes stationed there before war even broke out between Japan and the US. The Spratlys are by no means peaceful. There's a calm but plenty of tension is just beneath the surface. Please refer to the two links listing the number of times an issue had erupted.

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The amount of support for planes back then is no different then now. The fundamentals are the same, you need a runway, hangar, planes, fuel, parts, pilots, ground crew, ordinance, quarters, control tower. Same then, same now. If the notion is so ridiculous, why does Woody Island in the Paracels have a 8100 feet long runway with airplane hangars and fuel storage?
 
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