Ideal Cruiser thread

[Gollevainen]

Well I took the crew of the pr.1134B from Weyer's, and apparently they had some overestimations...

Anyway regarding the boilers, the suggestion of my was based on the idea of china being technologically at least at the same level in the cold war as the soviets so I quess even those high pressure type plants could be possiple....

 

[Pointblank]

Well I took the crew of the pr.1134B from Weyer's, and apparently they had some overestimations...

Anyway regarding the boilers, the suggestion of my was based on the idea of china being technologically at least at the same level in the cold war as the soviets so I quess even those high pressure type plants could be possiple....

The preferred engine configuration for a ship this size is the gas turbine, of which example cruisers that were fitted with it include the Russian/Soviet Kara class cruiser, Slava class cruiser, and of course, the American Ticonderoga class cruiser. I imagine if the Chinese do decide to pursue a modern cruiser, they would aim for gas turbine power, most likely Ukrainian gas turbines.

 

[Gollevainen]

Well this cruiser of mine is not supposed to be modern, but of a 70's design...In this "fantasyfleet" of mine, the gasturbine development was one of the achiles heels of china, and the first operational gas turbines came only in the late 70's but wasen't sufficient enough to power such a large cruiser...

 

[planeman]

Re current designs, what's the viability of mounting an air-defence laser or two, along the lines of the THEL (aka Skyguard) developed by US/Isreal?

Size of THEL turret:

Size of full THEL unit:

China has similar high powered lasers which it allegedly uses to blind spy sats, though I'd assume Chinese systems are slightly bigger. But conceptually is it a good idea?

THEL has an effective range of about 10km so is more a replacement for SHORAD/CIWS and an area air-defence system would still be needed.


Also, on the ATS thread there is a big debate trashing the azipod propulsion method but no real signs of any designs yet.

 

[planeman]

Another idea is "pop-up" SSM launchers which are hidden below decks except for firing. And Phased array radars could be behind flush radomes with zig-zag edges to reduce RCS.

 

[Scratch]

what's the viability of mounting an air-defence laser or two, along the lines of the THEL (aka Skyguard) developed by US/Isreal?

I believe incorporating THEL would be quiet difficult, since the turret shown in the picture is only a small part of the laser part of the whole system, as is shown in the grafic. Of course you could use the "already there" tracking radars, but the point-tracker, and laser systems requiere still much space wich in turn can't be used to store missile. And we still do not know if the chinese need perhaps even bigger systems. So I'd like to know about the exact size.
Furthermore the chemicals are highly toxic, and small failures may become dangerous. So I don't think this is a usefull alternativ in the near future.

 

[adeptitus]

Here's my "modernized' variant

Parameters:
This Chinese CG is based on enlarged 052C design with existing weapon systems, as well as imported ones from Russia to make it as realistic as possible. Some Chinese systems are assumed to be slightly improved versions. For example the Type 730A ADGMS is Type 730 CIWS + 6 point-defense SAM TLC's (require manual reload).

Displacement: ~9,000 tones loaded
Length: ~170 m
Beam: ~18 m
Draft: ~9m

Propulsion: Steam turbines

Sensors: Phased array radar system, Zarya-ME hull-mounted & towed array sonars with Amga sub detection system datalink, plus any others necessary for the ship

Weapons:
8 x 6-cel HQ-9A VLS (improved HQ-9)
2 x 4-cel YJ-62 SSM
1 x 8-cel Club-N VLS with 91RTE2 ASW missile
4 x Type 730A ADGMS (type 730 CIWS + missiles)
1 x 100mm dual-purpose gun
4 x 18-barrel MLRS decoy/chaff (domestic system)
2 x quad 533mm torpedo tubes with TEST-71ME-NK torpedo or PMK-2 ASW mine
2 x quad 324mm rotary PAKET-E/NK anti-torpedo missile launcher
RKPTZ-1E Torpedo/diver countermeasure system with 4 x KT-153E 10-barrel MLR + Type 111UPM reloader, 111SG HE rocket, 111SZ/CZG barrage depth-charge, & 111SO/SO2 hydroacoustic decoy rocket. Each MLRS has magazine with 20-40 rounds.

Aviation:
Helicopter deck + Hanger for 2 helicopters
UAV Mission module


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Is it possible to fit all that on a 9,000 ton ship?

 

[planeman]

Adeptitus, great line of thought mate. The UAV module in particular is an idea I'm stealing for my designs from this point on.

8 x 6-cel HQ-9A VLS (improved HQ-9)

Just a thought but the HQ-9 is about the same size as the S-300 and uses similar cold-launch revolving launchers. So it's compariatively heavy, takes up a lot of space etc compared to more contemporary VLS modules such as the Mk 41, SA-N-9, Barak, Aster etc etc.

The S-400 launch system could be much more compact so you could either carry more SAMs or have more extra space.

We know that four S-400s take up the same diameter as a single S-300 tube, and are shorter to boot! So at the very minimum 48 HQ-9s = 192 S-400s.... even without accounting for the more compact launch system.


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In order to estimate the dimensions of a 12,000t cruiser, I've taken the length, beam and draft of three very recent large destroyers and calculated a ratio. This is a VERY approximate method of calculation and assumes that all the designs follow a similar hull-form, construction etc.

My conclusion is that in order to meet 12,000t with a reasonable 6m draft, whilst maximising the hull length limit of 200m, the beam (width)would be about 24m:

Now to get mapping a hull. Your input on features etc would be greatly appreciated - we can see how different weapons choices would impact the design - for example S-400 compared to HQ-9 etc.

The basic layout of the starting point hull:

Fight deck at rear 20m long with a twin hanger capable of accomodating 2 Ka-28s plus 1 VTOL UAV (Based on Chinese design, size guessed).

Power units are CODAG with compariatively lots of volume taken up by IR suppression means (running the exhausts through pumped sea-water heat sinks, masked funnels, below-deck exhausts for the diesels etc).

Bridge would be in conventional postion.

Length: 198m
beam: 24m
Draft: 6m
Mean deck height: 3.2m

 

[bd popeye]

Is it possible to fit all that on a 9,000 ton ship?

Sure Maybe..But you guys need to consider that actual humans operate these ships now and into the future. There are no UAV ships yet. The Crew needs room to live on the ship...

I would not want to be on that ship if it got hit by any type of ordance. It just may go up like a firecracker.

 

[planeman]

Thank god for MSPaint; here's the starting point hull mapped out:

The Helix is to scale. The landing deck is 20m long, the hanger is 20m long by 10m wide.

The red lines are at 10m intervals.


Here's a close-up of the area-air-defence SAM choices to scale:

I think that the S-400 is a hands-down winner; it's smaller and probably much better. Not saying that HQ-9 isn't impressive, but each missile is a telegraph pole and the rotary launchers take up a lot of space.