How can CHina catch up with the West when its hands are tied?

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Quoting figures without quoting cost of living index is bad economics. Its also bad scholarship not to include especially when the CIA Factbook also lists GDP/PPP first and foremost.

China:

" GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$7.8 trillion (2008 est.)
country comparison to the world: 3
$7.104 trillion (2007)
$6.475 trillion (2006)
note: data are in 2008 US dollars"

Japan:

" GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$4.348 trillion (2008 est.)
country comparison to the world: 4
$4.365 trillion (2007)
$4.263 trillion (2006)
note: data are in 2008 US dollars"




People's savings in China is estimated at 3.3 trillion US$. The savings rate in China is many times higher.

That is true, but I was only pointing out the dramatic improvement of US savings which was nearly negligible prior to this financial crisis.

Point taken, but I didn't think it was relevant to the task in hand, which was to determine whether the US industrial output surpassed the combined total of Japan and China. and by introducing PPP you are moving the goal posts in determining the validity of Friedman's statement. I'm pretty sure his calculations were not based on PPP.( But I stand to be corrected on that one)
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I would have to disagree with Friedman on a few points. First, while it's true that the US's superpower status will remain, I think the damage to the US economy from this recession is much worse than he leads us to believes. The level of debt that the US is acquiring is simply unsustainable. The US is not prepared for the tougher environmental regulation that Obama administration is pushing for (because of its irresponsibility in the past). The US is more vulnerable to oil price increases because its citizens buy large gas-guzzlers. The US has a healthcare system that is broken and going bankrupt, a social security system that is running out of money, and an education system that is failing.

Many people 5 years ago would have laughed at the idea of GM going bankrupt. GM showed us that even a giant can fall very quickly. GM's failing was because it didn't think long term, instead, always survived by short term profits over long term prosperity. That is what the US had been doing for 30 years....kicking the can further down the road. Eventually too many things go wrong...like in GM's case.

All the things you have stated are true, the point being what are we going to do about it. Do we follow David Walker who advocates extreme measures, and is extremely creditable or Friedman who I feel represents the group of Americans who feel they can grow out of it.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
That is true, but I was only pointing out the dramatic improvement of US savings which was nearly negligible prior to this financial crisis.

Point taken, but I didn't think it was relevant to the task in hand, which was to determine whether the US industrial output surpassed the combined total of Japan and China. and by introducing PPP you are moving the goal posts in determining the validity of Friedman's statement. I'm pretty sure his calculations were not based on PPP.( But I stand to be corrected on that one)

First of all, GDP is far beyond industrial output. Industrial output is so vague even a box of Kelloggs is considered that. Also GDP counts government spending, except in entitlements. A significant portion of the US GDP lies in government spending, perhaps as much as 20%.

Funny that Friedman chose to neglect PPP when major organizations from the World Bank to the CIA, which is a major proponent of it, use it. Who is Friedman by the way, compared to these major institutions?

GDP does not equal true wealth creation of a society. GDP is a measurement of economic activity which is helpful in producing wealth. True wealth creation comes from something else. It comes in two ways, manufacture of goods+trade between goods, or just trade between goods and services. For wealth to be produced, you must have a net sum or profit, from these activities. A country in deficit is not producing wealth, but is draining it away. GDP figures don't show net activity. No, you check the public and private account balances, you check balance of trade (import/export), and you check the growth of reserves. What you need to check is the growth of that net sum, the profit. That's all that matters.

Take an entity like GM. It has tremendous economic activity---still buying lots of parts, paying wages around the world, selling hundreds of thousands of cars. In terms of economic activity its still among the top companies in the world. And still is. But its also bankrupt. Because it also owes so much. So the sum result of economic activity is negative, then you have wealth destruction.

Finally any improvement in the US savings rate---which is badly needed---is going to be offset by the declining monetary value of the dollar, which has lost 40% of its value since the decade began.
 
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Quickie

Colonel
T-U-P: your prices are about correct as of mid 2009. The thing is, McDonalds is like middle class food in China, suitable for dates and the occasional treat, not dirt cheap crap as it is in the US, so it is hardly a correct point of comparison. For something more everyday, 6-8 RMB will buy you rice and 2-4 side dishes plus soup in a big city, and more in a small one. Migrant workers can get boxed meals even cheaper....

That's like spending one US dollar for all of that. Yummy!

Just considering food skews the purchasing power comparison quite a bit. Commodity housing, especially in big cities, is comparable to the nominal value from currency conversion. Of course, crappier housing can be much cheaper, say a room for 300 rmb a month. In terms of electronics and cars, prices are basically what you would get from currency conversion, making them quite a bit more expensive in comparison to food. In terms of daily use items, they would go from direct conversion (in a large supermarket like carrefour or trustmart) to maybe half or a third of that if you buy questionable goods from a small shop.....

I suspect currencies in south east asian countries have roughly the same purchasing power after currency conversion from the rmb.

In South East Asia (probably excluding Singapore), 1000USD / month can quite easily be enough to raise a family of four plus to pay for installments for a 3 room house and a brand new sedan car. My guess is the currency exchange rate (against the USD or other major currency ) for most Asean countries is still about 40% lower than that before the 1997 financial crisis, but one thing is for sure, these countries is certainly not 40% poorer after the crisis and their standard of living keep on improving after that, irrespective of the exchange rate - which can be manipulated, I think
 
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Schumacher

Senior Member
I'm a little puzzled by what you exactly mean. It seems to me that you seem a little confused over what GDP (the annual monetary value of what a country produces)
as to the est. nett worth of America, which in this case, Friedman determined it to be $300 Trillion.. but you must be aware that this is based on asset value in a given point in time so it is most likely to fluctuate.
Perhaps you may like to read my reply to Schumacher (post42) for a extended explanation.;)

So now $50 trillion is 'pretty close' to $300 trillion ? lol.
How much of the net worth is based on stocks & real estate, two of the biggest bubbles in living memory ? and are they 'marked to market' or 'marked to fantasy' to arrive at the figure ? lol
There're reasons GDP is used much more to compare economies than 'net worth'. In the bubble years, the value of the real estate in Tokyo alone was said to be greater than entire US or the world just to show how ridiculous it can get.
Here's something few months back talking of China's rate of overtaking the US has accelerated post crisis to only about 10 years time. The PPP will likely happen even sooner.
I saw no need to share this here when I first saw it since although I mostly agree with it, I thought it was stating the obvious based on simple arithmetic. But I see it's good to put it here since some still prefer to dig up 'Tom Clancy type' analysis rather than those by real economist.

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Apr 23, 2009, 9:15 a.m. EST
China's GDP to overtake U.S. by early 2020s, says analyst
Mainland to become world's largest in about a decade, says Deutsche Bank

By Chris Oliver, MarketWatch

HONG KONG (MarketWatch) -- China will overtake the U.S. in terms of economic output within a decade, according to estimates released Thursday by Deutsche Bank, which said it had to accelerate its forecast of the mainland's leadership in the global economy in view of favorable growth dynamics in emerging markets.

China's growth will be underpinned by a rapid expansion in emerging market economies, which will account for about 70% of global GDP growth in the coming decade, Deutsche Bank's Chief Economist for Greater China, Jun Ma, told an investment conference in Hong Kong,

China will "massively invest" in these emerging economies using its nearly $2 trillion in foreign exchange reserves, extend its leverage by extending loans to the International Monetary Fund, and allow the yuan to appreciate in preparation for the currency's potential reserve status.

By the early 2020s, China will over the U.S. in terms of GDP, Ma said, noting the forecast is dramatically stepped-up from his views two years earlier.

"China's nominal GDP growth could surpass that of the United States within ten years, a period which will likely be accompanied by a gradual appreciation of the yuan," Ma said.

He added China had shown signs of economic recovery but cautioned the current rebound, fueled by the massive government stimulus spending and rapid growth in new loan issuance by state-controlled banks, will prove a false dawn.

The economy will slow as lending cools. The next downward leg of the what Ma described as "w-shaped" recovery will set in around the January-beginning quarter of next year.

It will take about 18 months for the economy to enter a new growth cycle, from the beginning of contraction.

"We expect a final GDP recovery, on a quarter on quarter basis, to start by middle of 2010," Ma said.

Bank lending is expected to cool to around 300 billion yuan per month from this month, easing from the monthly average 1.3 trillion yuan in the first quarter. The slowdown in lending will take about three to four months to be felt, Ma added.

Among favored ways to leverage China's growth potential, Ma said he favors health care, nuclear, wind power, the resource sector and advanced equipment makers in the areas of telecoms, shipbuilding, medical and power generation.
 

yehe

Junior Member
I just saw a post somewhere that stated the world bank est. economic growth of India 2010 at 8% and will over take chinas growth for the first time which is est. at 7.7% 2010.
Any comments about this?
 

lilzz

Banned Idiot
I just saw a post somewhere that stated the world bank est. economic growth of India 2010 at 8% and will over take chinas growth for the first time which is est. at 7.7% 2010.
Any comments about this?


I think China GDP of 2009 would be 4.6Trillion and India's 1.4 trillion
Even with 7.7% China would be above 5 Trillion mark.

I think China has bigger absolute numbers to work with.
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
I think China GDP of 2009 would be 4.6Trillion and India's 1.4 trillion
Even with 7.7% China would be above 5 Trillion mark.

I think China has bigger absolute numbers to work with.

So did Japan and other countries that made up the G8 at one time:)
 

bladerunner

Banned Idiot
So now $50 trillion is 'pretty close' to $300 trillion ? lol.

Geeez.... for christ sake You asked the question on how Friedman arrived at that figure when stating his countries wealth, to which I replied, by adding a nations assets,and resources, at market value which are subject to change. One does'nt go around randomly changing the accepted procedures for determining a country's wealth because they don't suit one's line of thinking.
I never said 50 Trillion was close to 300 Trillion. I said $50 Trillion was the starting point from which you continue to add the other assets of the nation. but to note these assets are subject to daily changes, so logically you may not arrive at the same figure as Friedman. Now why is that so hard to understand?.
Evaluating a countrys wealth provides snapshop on the over all position of the country.
Friedman is a nobody when it comes to the tin tacks of economics and has been proven embarrassingly wrong ( a point I acknowledged at the bottom of post 31)The reason why I mentioned him is , he voices views still held by many Americans, while it may be a surprise to you I am sceptical on most of his opinions. It doesn't mean to say his sources are wrong, its what interpretation he places on them.

IMO Friedman looks outside the square and puts a different perspective on things.
His book "The Next Hundred Years" could be worth a read, if only for the fact that he sees America as still being the Top dog for a long time, like hundreds of yrs, and where's China? well nowhere in fact he reckons it would follow its history and fragment itself over the next 100yrs.
Geography would prevent itself from becoming a world power. To the West the mountains and deserts to the North Siberia, to the East the pacific. Whereas America has easy access to the Atlantic and Pacific. If you can follow that logic.
 
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bladerunner

Banned Idiot
Here's something few months back talking of China's rate of overtaking the US has accelerated post crisis to only about 10 years time. The PPP will likely happen even sooner.
I saw no need to share this here when I first saw it since although I mostly agree with it, I thought it was stating the obvious based on simple arithmetic. But I see it's good to put it here since some still prefer to dig up 'Tom Clancy type' analysis rather than those by real economist.

[[/QUOTE
Friedman may not be a economist, but some do work for his organisation.

These real economic analysts you talk about also predicted Japan to surpass America, look what happened and how many predicted this current financial crisis :nana:

China has a lot of underlying problems internally as well as externally which could hinder its progress.

attempts to create a reserve currency and move away from the american one hasn't gained a lot of traction.

Attempts to acquire a bigger shareholding in Rio Tinto failed

A Backlash against Chinese presence in Papua New Guinea, underlies a hostility towards a Chinese presence, this may well extend to Africa where some negotiations have stalled or been retracted. and hasnt their been calls for the copper deal with one large African country to be cancelled?
 
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