How can and How should PLAN improve it self?

MIGleader said:

Not nation is allowed to have more than 16 SSBN's, and East asian countries can have none. Thus, an arms race is impossible. China shall be the sole operator of SSBNs in the region.

Click to expand...

If China would build bigger SSBN fleet arms race is almost certain. Other nation’s can´t build SSBN but they would start building large amounts of ASW ships, SSK and I can think of two nations that would probably start constructing SSN to counter that threat…
You don’t have to build your one SSBN to counter them, you joust have to make sure that you know where opponents SSBN are…

SSBNs are not really something China should invest in right now, as you all have pointed out. China has enough nuclear power to destroy any East Asian country, and none of them (other than adorable North Korea) have nuclear weapons anyway. It also has enough nuclear power to at least deter the US. Instead of building SSBNs that would cause political problems when they are not even need, China should develop a LACM that could be fired from an SSN, and compliment it with a larger SSN fleet, giving China subsurface strike capability that would allow for ASM missions and suprise attacks on land based targets. For example, China could fire its ballistic missles at Taiwan and in the same stroke hit Kadena and Guam from its subs.

In addition, SSBNs are not a necessary part of a CBG. SSNs are, and China needs a better force of them before it can have a credible carrier fleet. SSNs allow for a more well-rounded fleet. China does not want its navy to become a defensive/nuclear force like the Soviet Navy. That is why it needs SSNs.

MIGleader said:

China also has more money than Britain, France and Russia. But it appears china has been investing here naval money into different stuff, like SSKs and new DDGs. Neither russia, britian(until type 45), or france has serviced a vessel like the 52c. France's laffeyette may be stealthier, but it is a smaller FFG. Britains type 42 may have similar systems, but it is not stealthy. Russia's vessels may have more...missles, but thats it.

I do not see how china;s nuclear force is less capable than britain's or frances. The lack of ICBMs might be it, but why? China has the ability to build many more if it wants, but it doesnt.

Click to expand...

Hmmm...
Where does the Type-45 AAW DDG get it's systems? Lets see BAE... which has tech transfer right with all the US defense companies... how can you just claim that that 52C and 45 have the same systems? 52C has an APAR that probably overheats (look at the cooling tubes under the APAR) and 45 PAAMS ...
About stealth do I see weapons sticking out of the 52C?



And France? Well lets just say go look at their Horizon class FFG.....


Russia can easily build "stealth" ships if it wants, look at what they build for India... their "little" Talwar is probably going to be on par with the 054A

Hmmm it came out earlier than this other ship...

A. I said similar systems to tpye 42, not 45. As in similar, i meant in capabilities, nothing else.
B. The Horizon and the 45 are not in service yet. When they are, they will undoubtledly be superior to the 52c.
C. I knew about the talwar a long time ago. but ti has way to many exposed sensors and funnels on deck. The hull is the only stealthy part of the ship. comparable to 54A? if Im not mistaken, the VLS planned in the 54A pwns the shtill on the Talwar.
D. The 52c has a few "bumps". Most of them are covered in RAMs and slanted to minimize the RCS.

In anti-ship firepower, the Talwar is just slightly behind the Soveremeny, espeically the 956EM models with Moskits. Notice how both ships are Russian. Them Ruskies sure know how to pack a bunch in their destroyers... Talwar's anti-ship capability is superior to those of any PLAN ship other than the Soveremenys. However, I am not so sure of the Talwar's anti-air capablities. I doubt its in the same league as the 52C in the anti-air role. Probably closer to that of the 52B.

MIGleader said:

A. I said similar systems to tpye 42, not 45. As in similar, i meant in capabilities, nothing else.
B. The Horizon and the 45 are not in service yet. When they are, they will undoubtledly be superior to the 52c.
C. I knew about the talwar a long time ago. but ti has way to many exposed sensors and funnels on deck. The hull is the only stealthy part of the ship. comparable to 54A? if Im not mistaken, the VLS planned in the 54A pwns the shtill on the Talwar.
D. The 52c has a few "bumps". Most of them are covered in RAMs and slanted to minimize the RCS.

Click to expand...

What the AAW missiles on the 054A? So far all people said is SA-N-12, there's no way HQ-9 can fit on there.
Talwar has a way better ASW than 054A, the Klub and BrahMos are the premier missiles for ASW in Russia.
They might as well wrap the 52C in plastic and just let it sit in the port, go ask any of our VIP that's been the navy how the salt water corrode ships..... or even better go get a 52C team like in Nascar and just paint the 52C each time it's heading out
Even the USN doesn't give a sh!t about stealth, all it needs it superior electronics and weapons and it can detect the little "stealth" ships of PLAN.... only now are they starting with the DDX...
I perfer the USN startgey better, "if we see them first, we sink them", put all the millions on stealth ships to the stealth planes

54A is supposed to use an indigenous hq-16, possible based off of shtill or tor-m1.

Club and Bhramos are not for ASW.

52c might get a paint job everytime they take pics, for public benifit.

I struggle to get your last part...first you say the USN doesnt care about stealth, but then you say that the USN puts millions into stealthy ships.

Talwar has a way better ASW than 054A, the Klub and BrahMos are the premier missiles for ASW in Russia.

Click to expand...

Oh dear, Swimmer, ASW does not mean Anti-ship warfare. It means anti-submarine warfare. Although I HATE to say this, Miggy got you this time and he's right. The correct term you're looking for here is actually surface-to-surface warfare, or SSW.

I struggle to get your last part...first you say the USN doesnt care about stealth, but then you say that the USN puts millions into stealthy ships.

Click to expand...

No, no, no, that is not what he meant Miggy. He meant that China should take all the money it's spending on stealth ships and spend it on stealth planes instead.

The DD(X) has recently been CANCELLED

Remember they had the 1/4 mock up built not too long ago. I guess those trials didn't go too well.

Congress realized the Pentagon doesn't have a realistic idea about how much money the US government can spend on new toys.

geez, let's stop here. Remember, nothing on India vs China.

But just to correct swimmerxc though, I'd say any of the newer PLAN DDGs would have comparable Anti-ship capability to the sovs. If you check up the stats on klub missile, it travels less distance, weighs more and has warhead than YJ-62. If there is one thing that PLAN doesn't lack, it's anti-ship. 16 YJ-83s that are loaded on most of the newer DDGs pack quite a lot of punch.

As for AAW, it appears that most of the European AAWs are coming out in the next few years. Technologically speaking, 052C is behind these AAWs in many ways, but give it a few years to test out its systems. The first Type 45 is not joining service until 2009. The F-124s just all got commissioned. The Horizon class is going to join service at about the same time as type 45. So, let's see how far China's DDGs are in around 2010. It would be fairer to compare them to type 45/horizon series at that time.