Hong-Kong Protests

ChongqingHotPot92 · Mar 4, 2024

Michaelsinodef said:
Loyalty and identity affiliation will come with time.

Especially for next/newer generation, and even for older generation as they grow up/time passes (not all of them ofc, but quite a lot, especially as they get to hear more stories of HKers that are having bad time in foreign countries like UK, whether that be from returning or online stories from family/friends or media).

Well national identity construction (basically a story telling myth) usually involve a combination of improvements in material wellbeing, military victories against perceived enemies, and a self identity that is deemed both unique by the majority of the nation and worth passing down to the next generation. For HK, the dilemma is that the city really improved remarkably in terms of material wellbeing under British rule. So for HKers’ memories, wealth equals being second class citizens in the British Empire, so no wonder they cry for the Queen. Yet, HK’s experience during WWII (massacre committed by the Japanese), along with refugees escaping the PLA during the Chinese Civil War, also makes most HKers self-identity as culturally Chinese (not British due to their status as colonial subjects as opposed to British citizens), but only somewhat related to the Republic of China as opposed to the newly established PRC in 1949. And of course, HK’s economic growth stood in contrast to the PRC’s failed Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. During much of the 1980s and 1990s, HK was far more developed and took a leadership in China’s overall economic reform. One can argue that for much of the recent history, there is little reason for HKers to identify with and be proud of the PRC. If there were a China for HKers to identify with, it would be the KMT-led ROC (ultimately held out against Japan, albeit in a pyrrhic victory, unlike the Brits who were defeated by the IJA in the battle of HK) To recap, HK gained its wealth under British rule during the Cold War despite NOT being equal to British citizens. And much of the HK population were made of folks who did not benefit from the early years of the PRC, if not outright victims. So HK’s Chinese identity has been quite a dilemma for Beijing. In another words, it is difficult to come up with a story to persuade HKers that the PRC (CCP-led party state) is their righteous overlord, unless Beijing could somehow allow HKers to accumulate even more wealth and opportunities (much more than what the Brits brought to HK) by trading with Mainland. The Shenzhen shopping phenomenon is a positive sign for stability and willingness of HKers to engage with Mainlanders in a pragmatic way, but much more needed to happen in order to address HKers’ identity crisis. Also, with the whole U.S.-led geo-economic containment of the PRC, it is hard to HK to gain additional wealth (and for average HK folks to feel a surge of opportunities) by a huge margin.

Dolcevita · Mar 4, 2024

CMP said:
You were naive about crime in major American cities. Now you understand what it is really like, and the kind of precautions you need to take. Stay far away from any crowds/crowded streets (but also away from any seemingly empty/isolated streets). Always maintain at least arm's length distance from any and all people. Ideally at least several arm's lengths except when crossing paths. Keep phone/wallet/keys only in deep front pocket with zipper/button. Never in open pocket/back pocket/open bag. If you have no clothes that support that, then you need to add to/change your wardrobe. I.e., if you wear a suit/vest then store them in your inside-facing chest pocket with button. If you don't wear a suit/vest and your pants don't support this carrying style, then store them deep in a backpack/messenger bag.

I concede that I was not mindful.

My point was that the Police Officers(2 of them) did not want to be bothered with filing a police report which I may eventually need to prove to insurance company and employer of this crime. Fortunately I did not lose much of value except for being inconvenience with reissuance of credit card and drivers license.

Bellum_Romanum · Mar 4, 2024

ChongqingHotPot92 said:
Well national identity construction (basically a story telling myth) usually involve a combination of improvements in material wellbeing, military victories against perceived enemies, and a self identity that is deemed both unique by the majority of the nation and worth passing down to the next generation. For HK, the dilemma is that the city really improved remarkably in terms of material wellbeing under British rule. So for HKers’ memories, wealth equals being second class citizens in the British Empire, so no wonder they cry for the Queen. Yet, HK’s experience during WWII (massacre committed by the Japanese), along with refugees escaping the PLA during the Chinese Civil War, also makes most HKers self-identity as culturally Chinese (not British due to their status as colonial subjects as opposed to British citizens), but only somewhat related to the Republic of China as opposed to the newly established PRC in 1949. And of course, HK’s economic growth stood in contrast to the PRC’s failed Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. During much of the 1980s and 1990s, HK was far more developed and took a leadership in China’s overall economic reform. One can argue that for much of the recent history, there is little reason for HKers to identify with and be proud of the PRC. If there were a China for HKers to identify with, it would be the KMT-led ROC (ultimately held out against Japan, albeit in a pyrrhic victory, unlike the Brits who were defeated by the IJA in the battle of HK) To recap, HK gained its wealth under British rule during the Cold War despite NOT being equal to British citizens. And much of the HK population were made of folks who did not benefit from the early years of the PRC, if not outright victims. So HK’s Chinese identity has been quite a dilemma for Beijing. In another words, it is difficult to come up with a story to persuade HKers that the PRC (CCP-led party state) is their righteous overlord, unless Beijing could somehow allow HKers to accumulate even more wealth and opportunities (much more than what the Brits brought to HK) by trading with Mainland. The Shenzhen shopping phenomenon is a positive sign for stability and willingness of HKers to engage with Mainlanders in a pragmatic way, but much more needed to happen in order to address HKers’ identity crisis. Also, with the whole U.S.-led geo-economic containment of the PRC, it is hard to HK to gain additional wealth (and for average HK folks to feel a surge of opportunities) by a huge margin.

The Mainland can't and must not continue to be held hostage metaphorically speaking by an ill-mannered, entitled children that have lost their ways, to the point that they can no longer and or unwilling in many cases to even recognize themselves as CHINESE.

The "othering" and the need to feel "SPECIAL" are what's at issue here. What is the problem of Hong Kong becoming just like any other tier 1 cities of China? Why do Chinese people and government need to constantly foister a sense of special treatment to what's essentially an ungrateful delirious children? How about the many loyal and just as equally if not more so entrepreneurs, innovators, government system, leaders in politics, academia, and technologists that have brought China to where it sits today.

There can be no national unity, social, cultural and ethnic cohesion if places like Hong Kong among others will constantly demand to be treated differently, uniquely, and with a special status undeserved amongst the rest in China. What's to stop other groups and "Special places" to demand similar approach down the road? And what would the government response to that reality? No you can't?

Hong Kong was able to develop faster due to its strategic location especially it's ports being used as a gateway for trade and manufacturing in the 50's then gradually transitioned into a financial hub in the 70's just in time to fully take advantage of China's opening up reform under Deng Xiaoping. The development of Hong Kong coinside with the Chinese pursuit of higher education meaning that then city state had a strong educated workforce. Try imagining Hong Kong, Macau as part of India like Goa and we'll see just how drastic and pathetic Hong Kong would have been.

The problem of identity amongst Hong Konger is a congruent or combination of historical nihilism, defeatism, loss of faith in the motherland hence the acceptance of their previous overlords supremacy as an inevitability. Who could fault them for thinking that way, when the world was essentially controlled by the British and her offspring: America.

ChongqingHotPot92 · Mar 4, 2024

Bellum_Romanum said:
The Mainland can't and must not continue to be held hostage metaphorically speaking by an ill-mannered, entitled children that have lost their ways, to the point that they can no longer and or unwilling in many cases to even recognize themselves as CHINESE.

The "othering" and the need to feel "SPECIAL" are what's at issue here. What is the problem of Hong Kong becoming just like any other tier 1 cities of China? Why do Chinese people and government need to constantly foister a sense of special treatment to what's essentially an ungrateful delirious children? How about the many loyal and just as equally if not more so entrepreneurs, innovators, government system, leaders in politics, academia, and technologists that have brought China to where it sits today.

There can be no national unity, social, cultural and ethnic cohesion if places like Hong Kong among others will constantly demand to be treated differently, uniquely, and with a special status undeserved amongst the rest in China. What's to stop other groups and "Special places" to demand similar approach down the road? And what would the government response to that reality? No you can't?

Hong Kong was able to develop faster due to its strategic location especially it's ports being used as a gateway for trade and manufacturing in the 50's then gradually transitioned into a financial hub in the 70's just in time to fully take advantage of China's opening up reform under Deng Xiaoping. The development of Hong Kong coinside with the Chinese pursuit of higher education meaning that then city state had a strong educated workforce. Try imagining Hong Kong, Macau as part of India like Goa and we'll see just how drastic and pathetic Hong Kong would have been.

The problem of identity amongst Hong Konger is a congruent or combination of historical nihilism, defeatism, loss of faith in the motherland hence the acceptance of their previous overlords supremacy as an inevitability. Who could fault them for thinking that way, when the world was essentially controlled by the British and her offspring: America.

Well instead of just calling HKers as spoiled, why not understand where they come from first. If one cannot be changed, he or she could still be manipulated via material interests or cognitive warfare. Think about what Putin and his silovikies did to the UK and the U.S. in 2016. Also, what about the “great replacement theory” with HKers gradually “replaced” by the so-called “locxsts ” from “chxxxxxxxeeena ” with tacit institutional supports form Beijing? HKers clearly don’t stand a chance in fighting back. It is not even a fair fight to start with given HK’s geographical proximity to the Mainland.

My point is not to be offensive or sarcastic, but there is a lot of tools within Beijing’s toolbox. Yet, they mostly fall into the categories of hard and sharp power, not soft power. It is with the issue of soft power where I am the most pessimistic because it is hard to get HKers to truly identify with the PRC by heart. And with this likely continuing failure of soft power, Beijing has no choice but to resort to hard and sharp powers. The history of HK dictated that HKers are unlikely to affiliate themselves wholeheartedly with the CCP until 2-3 generations from now. And with the US-led containment, the sluggishness of the Chinese economy, the collapse of the covid lockdowns, and continuing success of western media outlets in propagating liberal values, it is very difficult for HKers to wholeheartedly embrace the CCP’s narrative of unification and identity.

But again, having seen Beijing hard and sharp powers, most HKers will likely be pragmatic so long as Beijing is willing to implement the national security law.

Zhong"Geodaddy"Li · Mar 4, 2024

ChongqingHotPot92 said:
Well instead of just calling HKers as spoiled, why not understand where they come from first. If one cannot be changed, he or she could still be manipulated via material interests or cognitive warfare. Think about what Putin and his silovikies did to the UK and the U.S. in 2016. Also, what about the “great replacement theory” with HKers gradually “replaced” by the so-called “locxsts ” from “chxxxxxxxeeena ” with tacit institutional supports form Beijing? HKers clearly don’t stand a chance in fighting back. It is not even a fair fight to start with given HK’s geographical proximity to the Mainland.

My point is not to be offensive or sarcastic, but there is a lot of tools within Beijing’s toolbox. Yet, they mostly fall into the categories of hard and sharp power, not soft power. It is with the issue of soft power where I am the most pessimistic because it is hard to get HKers to truly identify with the PRC by heart. And with this likely continuing failure of soft power, Beijing has no choice but to resort to hard and sharp powers. The history of HK dictated that HKers are unlikely to affiliate themselves wholeheartedly with the CCP until 2-3 generations from now. And with the US-led containment, the sluggishness of the Chinese economy, the collapse of the covid lockdowns, and continuing success of western media outlets in propagating liberal values, it is very difficult for HKers to wholeheartedly embrace the CCP’s narrative of unification and identity.

But again, having seen Beijing hard and sharp powers, most HKers will likely be pragmatic so long as Beijing is willing to implement the national security law.

Simple really, do what the US does. Out of the 12 years of mandatory history education 9 should be on every single dynasty, 1 on the opium war, 1.5 on the sinojapanese and the very last half in modern citizenship. Assign homework that forces the parents to look things up or have their precious child’s grades go down.

tch1972 · Mar 4, 2024

ACuriousPLAFan said:
Peak Hongkies be like:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1764453499725889641

View attachment 126186

Speaking from personal experience, i used to dislike and look down on Malaysia alot just like Hongkies who feels about mainland. But ever since I frequent Malaysia by driving across the border, my view of Malaysia had made a drastic 180 degrees change over the years. Of course age factor also played an important role here.

Hopefully views of Hongkies with mainland will undergo the same transformation with more interactions.

CMP · Mar 4, 2024

Dolcevita said:
I concede that I was not mindful.

My point was that the Police Officers(2 of them) did not want to be bothered with filing a police report which I may eventually need to prove to insurance company and employer of this crime. Fortunately I did not lose much of value except for being inconvenience with reissuance of credit card and drivers license.

A couple of words of wisdom for the future. Never assume the police are there to help you. Also, you need to be very clear with them that you need to file a report for purposes of insurance claims. Otherwise it is easy to be brushed off. If you still get brushed off, then just try a different station.

manqiangrexue · Mar 4, 2024

ChongqingHotPot92 said:
Well instead of just calling HKers as spoiled, why not understand where they come from first. If one cannot be changed, he or she could still be manipulated via material interests or cognitive warfare. Think about what Putin and his silovikies did to the UK and the U.S. in 2016. Also, what about the “great replacement theory” with HKers gradually “replaced” by the so-called “locxsts ” from “chxxxxxxxeeena ” with tacit institutional supports form Beijing? HKers clearly don’t stand a chance in fighting back. It is not even a fair fight to start with given HK’s geographical proximity to the Mainland.

My point is not to be offensive or sarcastic, but there is a lot of tools within Beijing’s toolbox. Yet, they mostly fall into the categories of hard and sharp power, not soft power. It is with the issue of soft power where I am the most pessimistic because it is hard to get HKers to truly identify with the PRC by heart. And with this likely continuing failure of soft power, Beijing has no choice but to resort to hard and sharp powers. The history of HK dictated that HKers are unlikely to affiliate themselves wholeheartedly with the CCP until 2-3 generations from now. And with the US-led containment, the sluggishness of the Chinese economy, the collapse of the covid lockdowns, and continuing success of western media outlets in propagating liberal values, it is very difficult for HKers to wholeheartedly embrace the CCP’s narrative of unification and identity.

But again, having seen Beijing hard and sharp powers, most HKers will likely be pragmatic so long as Beijing is willing to implement the national security law.

Don't worry about any "soft power" aspect. The more you try, the more they think you're soft and you're doing soft shit because you don't have hard power, making them further ridicule and distance themselves from you. Hard power is all there is to it; show it in force show more hard power than the US, and it will naturally attract them because it makes you look like a winner and everyone wants to be a winner. China's economy is out of the fast and dirty phase so it looks sluggish compared to before but it's more than twice as fast-growing as America's. Our COVID lockdowns prevented millions of deaths while Western countries saw corpses tossed in reefers outside hospitals. Whether there is success of media outlets is completely dependent on whether people choose to continue to access them, which is all inertia from prior preferences; this can be broken by gaining their admiration through hard power. Yes, it will take time, perhaps more than one generation, for HKers to fully integrate with China, but we can help them simply by showing them how strong we are and how we outdo everyone, especially the West that they admire. No active attempts at "soft power" are necessary or helpful. Soft power only follows hard power like remora under sharks as people chase the winning team.

coolgod · Mar 5, 2024

ChongqingHotPot92 said:
Well national identity construction (basically a story telling myth) usually involve a combination of improvements in material wellbeing, military victories against perceived enemies, and a self identity that is deemed both unique by the majority of the nation and worth passing down to the next generation. For HK, the dilemma is that the city really improved remarkably in terms of material wellbeing under British rule. So for HKers’ memories, wealth equals being second class citizens in the British Empire, so no wonder they cry for the Queen. Yet, HK’s experience during WWII (massacre committed by the Japanese), along with refugees escaping the PLA during the Chinese Civil War, also makes most HKers self-identity as culturally Chinese (not British due to their status as colonial subjects as opposed to British citizens), but only somewhat related to the Republic of China as opposed to the newly established PRC in 1949. And of course, HK’s economic growth stood in contrast to the PRC’s failed Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. During much of the 1980s and 1990s, HK was far more developed and took a leadership in China’s overall economic reform. One can argue that for much of the recent history, there is little reason for HKers to identify with and be proud of the PRC. If there were a China for HKers to identify with, it would be the KMT-led ROC (ultimately held out against Japan, albeit in a pyrrhic victory, unlike the Brits who were defeated by the IJA in the battle of HK) To recap, HK gained its wealth under British rule during the Cold War despite NOT being equal to British citizens. And much of the HK population were made of folks who did not benefit from the early years of the PRC, if not outright victims. So HK’s Chinese identity has been quite a dilemma for Beijing. In another words, it is difficult to come up with a story to persuade HKers that the PRC (CCP-led party state) is their righteous overlord, unless Beijing could somehow allow HKers to accumulate even more wealth and opportunities (much more than what the Brits brought to HK) by trading with Mainland. The Shenzhen shopping phenomenon is a positive sign for stability and willingness of HKers to engage with Mainlanders in a pragmatic way, but much more needed to happen in order to address HKers’ identity crisis. Also, with the whole U.S.-led geo-economic containment of the PRC, it is hard to HK to gain additional wealth (and for average HK folks to feel a surge of opportunities) by a huge margin.

Beijing shouldn't care nor try to convince HKers of anything. As time passes by, HK will fade into irrelevancy, just like the many other Chinese cities before them (Anyang, Kaifeng, Luoyang, Quanzhou, Yangzhou, Linzi). It's not like HK's geographic location is inherently good (except to invade China of course).

HK's current financial role can be moved to other parts of China, there is no law or immutable rule that says foreign transactions can't take place on mainland China.

Dolcevita · Mar 5, 2024

CMP said:
A couple of words of wisdom for the future. Never assume the police are there to help you. Also, you need to be very clear with them that you need to file a report for purposes of insurance claims. Otherwise it is easy to be brushed off. If you still get brushed off, then just try a different station.

When my college-day home was broken into in Asia. The police came and did a full investigation even when nothing valuable was taken. The apartment was ransacked. They took pictures and collected fingerprints all over. The idea was to collect evidence in cases where they find a suspect from other robberies which can collaborate the suspects behavior. It is all part of analyzing criminal behavior and activities within the community to alert law enforcement forces on criminal behavior. Tax money well spent.

In the case of NY or US police, There is very little proactive effort to understand the criminal activities within the community. The police officers I encountered were patrol law enforcers but they are not even interested on type of criminal activities on the same block they are patrolling. They are there only for SHOW to show police presence but they were too busy chatting and munching on their donuts to bother about the type of and modus operandi of criminal activities going on under their nose. No effort to obtain a description of the snatcher and modus operandi of the crime.

In addition, during christmas time, they will call you at home and ask for donation for their christmas party. I was even offered a police sticker for my car, which they distribute to police family and relatives if I give a certain amount of donation, The sticker are given to family members of police officer to avoid issuance of parking violations to police officer and their family.

Hence Tax are being used only for show with little crime prevention activities.

Hong-Kong Protests

ChongqingHotPot92

Junior Member

Dolcevita

Major

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier

ChongqingHotPot92

Junior Member

Zhong"Geodaddy"Li

New Member

tch1972

Junior Member

CMP

Senior Member

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

coolgod

Colonel

Dolcevita

Major