Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

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I guess there's no need to repeat what I said earlier about using Facebook information. Just want to add that our tendency to believe what fits our schema is so strong, plus all the peer-influence on Facebook, I know it would be difficult to stay rational and skeptical. I have to remind myself about this when I read claims that fits my belief too well.

Thanks for taking out the misinformation.

Should be me thanking you for pointing it out to me instead. I can't appreciate your gesture enough. My "job" is to let people know what's happening, share what I see, explain what I know, and prevent misleading information. It is true I have to be careful with what I post especially from Facebook, although it's a double edged sword since we as Psych know this is naturalistic observation in one of its form, but still also fallible to bias and a lot of other things
 

Brumby

Major
the attacks do not constitute sufficient excuse for pulling out. so those who did were either too immature, or were afraid of being marginalized and wanted someone else to talk to LCY, which then became a tragedy of the common scenario, nobody ended up talking to LCY.

it wasnt a smart move, now if the talks ever resume, representatives of the OC movement will be at a disadvantage.

The OC movement should just organise a tactical retreat from Mong Kok and regroup in the Central district. Personally I think it was a strategic mistake to occupy Mong Kok because the movement was government focus and not business. This will ensure the safety of the movement and refocus their energy where it matters.

The important thing for the movement in any negotiations is that they have unity and therefore speak on behalf of the group with clarity of demands.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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The assumption has been laid that the government has knowledge about this and warranted it, so the act is to force the government to stop.

If you assume the government is behind the attacks, then this action is to get the attackers to stop first.

However I know most of you guys won't believe it and it's not too easy to verify, so just take it as it is.

Let's be logical; what reason does Beijing or the SAR have to try and use violence to confront OC? The reason the govt has been able to avoid a larger movement by other parts of the population is because they've been quite restrained in their handling of the situation. If they organised anti OC groups and ordered them to use violence, more public opinion would turn against them.

That idea is as ridiculous (actually probably more ridiculous) than saying OC ring leaders had foreign support.

If there is more solid evidence for specific parts of anti OC being organised by govt groups then by all means, they'll have my condemnation
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The OC movement should just organise a tactical retreat from Mong Kok and regroup in the Central district. Personally I think it was a strategic mistake to occupy Mong Kok because the movement was government focus and not business. This will ensure the safety of the movement and refocus their energy where it matters.

The important thing for the movement in any negotiations is that they have unity and therefore speak on behalf of the group with clarity of demands.

Hasn't that been the challenge all along?
 
Let's be logical; what reason does Beijing or the SAR have to try and use violence to confront OC? The reason the govt has been able to avoid a larger movement by other parts of the population is because they've been quite restrained in their handling of the situation. If they organised anti OC groups and ordered them to use violence, more public opinion would turn against them.

That idea is as ridiculous (actually probably more ridiculous) than saying OC ring leaders had foreign support.

If there is more solid evidence for specific parts of anti OC being organised by govt groups then by all means, they'll have my condemnation

The thing is, I saw 2 videos today talking about cooperation between HK police, Triads, and the Chinese government.

Then, last year I read another 2 other articles written by former police officers and a former ICAC staff. The ICAC staff voiced his frustration that ICAC top brass at many times (since Timothy Tong) prevented the investigations of certain big fish, while the former police officer wrote an article expressing his disappointment that HKPF isn't what it used to be. His reasoning was that some high ranking officers, after leaving the force, were hired by Triads and organized crime as consultants to get the inside understanding of how police do things, and then taught them on how to evade tax, breaches of the law, prosecution, etc.

Then today, I read a piece where a former Triad boss expressed outrage of what's happening, then said it's impossible that CY Leung don't know about all this, and that there's already been workings between the police and the Triads for dealing some backdoor stuffs for stability of territories etc, and I suppose this character is referring to something that's been around for at least 20+ years.

Then the next video I found/shown to me was a professor(I think one of the Occupy Trio) mentioning how he had talked to a former Triad boss who said the exact same thing, and how the police and the Triads had been cooperating, along with big businesses and the government for quite some time. However everything went downhill when CY Leung took office, who made things deteriorated a lot faster. He then further mentioned how the Beijing had idea that things could get ugly after the announcement, so there had been some talks where criminal organizations offered to do the rough cleanup for the HKPF, all because the HKPF had taps/leads on their criminal activity and they wanted to seize this chance to curry HKPF's favor or clean their records or something. He then said HK has never been so corrupted, and that the infiltration into the city began some weeks before all this mess, and there were promises that on 9/30 and 10/1 that they would do something big, and no one knows if they are gonna escalate.. Furthermore, if you include how that Falun bashers are on the streets that time and the police didn't do much to stop them, then it's not completely impossible. And if you do consider the gates to the government HQ were installed just prior to the announcement of the NPC, it seemed not coincidence.


I lost my hope further when I saw this video and the article because that means there's no cure for HK already. The pork-barrel politics and the ties between the police, Triads, governments, businesses, are all too connected.

I didn't bother posting the latter 2 sources because not only I'd have to translate, I doubt everyone will look at them. Furthermore, I can't verify the information on these 2 pieces of sources and they are controversial, so I rather not(also considering the crowd here are most likely going to dismiss this, or have a new flame war that might scapegoat me like I wrote it)
 

pla101prc

Senior Member
I think when the problems surfaced in Mong Kok there were probably initial confusion over facts on the ground. There might be assumption on the part of the movement that it was orchestrated by the HKSAR. A basic premise in any negotiation is the need to act in good faith. If that is not seen to be present then any negotiations will just be a sham.

I think the movement should withdraw from Mong Kok and regroup their resources in the Central district. Let the situation settle down and get the facts straighten. This requires organisation and intelligence on the ground which is best directed and managed from a central command.

They should then go back to negotiations after ensuring the safety of people involved in the movement.

they should demand (publicly) the government to sanction a ground in which they can settle down over an extended period, and segregated from potential assault. the police will be responsible for the safety of all protesters within the said area but beyond that its fair game. that way if anyone has qualms about protesters impeding on their business they can go take it up with the government, wouldnt be out of measure to demand compemsation.
 
they should demand (publicly) the government to sanction a ground in which they can settle down over an extended period, and segregated from potential assault. the police will be responsible for the safety of all protesters within the said area but beyond that its fair game. that way if anyone has qualms about protesters impeding on their business they can go take it up with the government, wouldnt be out of measure to demand compemsation.

sigh well-said, but if only that can happen. the police no longer cares anymore. they are letting the thugs take care of the mess now. and if you consider how many times they closed dialogue, closed off streets, and did all sorts of things to prevent the assembly from properly taking its course, you will understand whats going on.

all i wish for now is for this to be over and the students to get home safe.
 

Brumby

Major
The thing is, I saw 2 videos today talking about cooperation between HK police, Triads, and the Chinese government.

Then, last year I read another 2 other articles written by former police officers and a former ICAC staff. The ICAC staff voiced his frustration that ICAC top brass at many times (since Timothy Tong) prevented the investigations of certain big fish, while the former police officer wrote an article expressing his disappointment that HKPF isn't what it used to be. His reasoning was that some high ranking officers, after leaving the force, were hired by Triads and organized crime as consultants to get the inside understanding of how police do things, and then taught them on how to evade tax, breaches of the law, prosecution, etc.

Then today, I read a piece where a former Triad boss expressed outrage of what's happening, then said it's impossible that CY Leung don't know about all this, and that there's already been workings between the police and the Triads for dealing some backdoor stuffs for stability of territories etc, and I suppose this character is referring to something that's been around for at least 20+ years.

Then the next video I found/shown to me was a professor(I think one of the Occupy Trio) mentioning how he had talked to a former Triad boss who said the exact same thing, and how the police and the Triads had been cooperating, along with big businesses and the government for quite some time. However everything went downhill when CY Leung took office, who made things deteriorated a lot faster. He then further mentioned how the Beijing had idea that things could get ugly after the announcement, so there had been some talks where criminal organizations offered to do the rough cleanup for the HKPF, all because the HKPF had taps/leads on their criminal activity and they wanted to seize this chance to curry HKPF's favor or clean their records or something. He then said HK has never been so corrupted, and that the infiltration into the city began some weeks before all this mess, and there were promises that on 9/30 and 10/1 that they would do something big, and no one knows if they are gonna escalate.. Furthermore, if you include how that Falun bashers are on the streets that time and the police didn't do much to stop them, then it's not completely impossible. And if you do consider the gates to the government HQ were installed just prior to the announcement of the NPC, it seemed not coincidence.


I lost my hope further when I saw this video and the article because that means there's no cure for HK already. The pork-barrel politics and the ties between the police, Triads, governments, businesses, are all too connected.

I didn't bother posting the latter 2 sources because not only I'd have to translate, I doubt everyone will look at them. Furthermore, I can't verify the information on these 2 pieces of sources and they are controversial, so I rather not(also considering the crowd here are most likely going to dismiss this, or have a new flame war that might scapegoat me like I wrote it)

Regardless of the truth and reasons behind, it is important for the movement to focus on what was its primary objective and that is to get the government back on the table. Set aside the emotional component, protect the people by tactical withdrawal and focus on the negotiations with clarity of objectives.

Politics is messy and protest movements are even messier.
 
Regardless of the truth and reasons behind, it is important for the movement to focus on what was its primary objective and that is to get the government back on the table. Set aside the emotional component, protect the people by tactical withdrawal and focus on the negotiations with clarity of objectives.

Politics is messy and protest movements are even messier.

I only care about the students now. I just want them to get home safe and leave this city someday. This city doesn't deserve them anymore. I also don't know how much longer Scholarism is holding off, but the longer they're doing this, the more damage it's happening.

I can't believe how despicable CY is. (yes that's my bias and assumption that HKSAR has a hand in this, my apologies)
 
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