Hong Kong....Occupy Central Demonstrations....

airsuperiority said:

If they are genuine Anonymous, this will be the most very interesting showdown of 2 of the most notorious cyber-warfare forces. Anonymous seems to be all over the globe and untraceable..is it? Oh and of course we've all heard about the Chinese cyber hackers, but who's better at their job is sth I'm curious about.

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Anonymous are as wide and disparate a group as 4chan. Their claim to be "legion" can just as easily be described as "flimsy".
The stunts they've pulled are far from what can be done by professional state hackers, certainly not cyber "warfare" worthy.

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As for NGO and foreign support, that is not useful as a basis to seek article 23.
Rather, if they are led by people who have things like "overthrow the CCP" or independence in their public manifest, that is a far more clear and present threat.

airsuperiority said:

hmm SDF slowing down. I meant to say YR(yellow ribbon) but don't know why i typed YB. weird typo.

Imo, whoever participated in the violence, especially the instigators, should be subject to the proper arrest, student or no student, yr or br. I also don't think it should be called "to balance out". Also, I had not objected to police attempting to clear the area at all. The questions are where on earth those fences outside Civic Square comes from, and why the police prevented the original assembly of the YR at Tamar. If they didn't do either, nothing should've happened last week. Even the 87 tear gas won't have been deployed, and if it did, they probably not gonna be directed at the students, and probably barely anyone will boil over about the tear gas used on OC. Sounds cynical but that's reality and you know what I'm talking about; the whole movement snowballed cause of the presence of the students, and everyone started caring cause of the students. OC wasn't popular before the students took the streets and you know it. Even I wasn't caring too much about OC before then.

OC can be seen by some as backing up the students, but very quickly the mixture is lethal in both good and bad way, and we're seeing it now.

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You're right. The government was trying to block the class boycott, with good reasons. Imo, middle schoolers should NOT be involved and they should NOT be on the streets. What's next? Primary school boycott? Kindergarten boycott?

Students present a headache because everyone cared about them and started losing all rationality as the police used force "against the peaceful students". I've never denied that. Now that a few days have passed, rationality has taken over again and OC's popularity waned.

Lol anonymous. Can we stop acting like they're a bunch of hackers. They are just a bunch of kids using a botnet to DDOS, hardly hacking. Granted there are spin off groups like Lulzec who are acutally proficient at hacking however at the end, a few of the members was arrested. The videos they make is as cringey as ever. Its kind of funny people on FB actually take them seriously. Well it is Facebook.

Bltizo said:

Anonymous are as wide and disparate a group as 4chan. Their claim to be "legion" can just as easily be described as "flimsy".
The stunts they've pulled are far from what can be done by professional state hackers, certainly not cyber "warfare" worthy.

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As for NGO and foreign support, that is not useful as a basis to seek article 23.
Rather, if they are led by people who have things like "overthrow the CCP" or independence in their public manifest, that is a far more clear and present threat.

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Thanks for the explanation!

ancestral said:

You're right. The government was trying to block the class boycott, with good reasons. Imo, middle schoolers should NOT be involved and they should NOT be on the streets. What's next? Primary school boycott? Kindergarten boycott?

Students present a headache because everyone cared about them and started losing all rationality as the police used force "against the peaceful students". I've never denied that. Now that a few days have passed, rationality has taken over again and OC's popularity waned.

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Personally my concerns are yes, like a lot of people, the students. As for trying to block it, I think the gov't is failing in PR skills, transparency, etc. If the students are gonna boycott, then let them do it, AND do give a sincere attitude to receiving them. Once people had voiced themselves, they will leave generally. The problem is CY and HKSAR didn't do that; they tried to prevent the assembly, which in fact the more they prevent things, the bigger the snowball effect. In a way, waiting it out is more of a viable tactic, although again people should be questioning why the gov't can't receive the public with more effort. CY was also dumb for saying "I will sit down with a pen and paper to listen what you have to say" back during the elections, as obviously now he can't deliver.

One more thing: there are really a sh!tload of problems in HK right now. A lot of people are suffering from various issues, and I feel the HKSAR is adding fuel to the fire by poor PR reception at the very least. All those issues are not gonna go away on its own, and HKSAR really needs to be more accountable to the public and try more. While I agree that the pan-dems are also wasting people's time by stalling the LegCo and that they are a contribution to the problem, I think all of these things indicate that there's a huge problem with the way HKSAR is running right now.

Zool said:

For the size and duration of this event, I would have to say it is one of the most peaceful civil disruptions I have ever seen.

I would commend Police restraint and go further in saying anyone who is critical of Police response is naive or has an agenda. This would not go down the same in any city of 7 Million in the US (beacon of Democracy but also Law & Order).

The police here in HK are clearly outnumbered from the start. In the US if that were the case, National Guard would be called out to balance those numbers. Second, laying a hand on a US Officer during something like this would usually lead to arrest with good chance of a beating just before. Charging a Police line, especially after a warning, well... It would be a bad day for protesters and busy one for hospitals.

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If that don't occur, US police provocators will be deployed like during the 99%, tea party, WTO and g8 meeting, to incite violence. So the cops could brutalise and clear the street. Pro war protest are different, they are encouraged. In some recent countries, such protest were even sniped by unknown entity, for world media condemnation blaming the cops. (Ukraine).

Interesting how there are new members popping up on this thread now. Anyway I think it's about time I take a nice vacation off this forum. I've got a lot more to do elsewhere. I'm also getting kinda tired of following what's happening in HK now cuz I'm emotionally burned out like a lot of people.

airsuperiority said:

Personally my concerns are yes, like a lot of people, the students. As for trying to block it, I think the gov't is failing in PR skills, transparency, etc. If the students are gonna boycott, then let them do it, AND do give a sincere attitude to receiving them. Once people had voiced themselves, they will leave generally. The problem is CY and HKSAR didn't do that; they tried to prevent the assembly, which in fact the more they prevent things, the bigger the snowball effect. In a way, waiting it out is more of a viable tactic, although again people should be questioning why the gov't can't receive the public with more effort. CY was also dumb for saying "I will sit down with a pen and paper to listen what you have to say" back during the elections, as obviously now he can't deliver.

One more thing: there are really a sh!tload of problems in HK right now. A lot of people are suffering from various issues, and I feel the HKSAR is adding fuel to the fire by poor PR reception at the very least. All those issues are not gonna go away on its own, and HKSAR really needs to be more accountable to the public and try more. While I agree that the pan-dems are also wasting people's time by stalling the LegCo and that they are a contribution to the problem, I think all of these things indicate that there's a huge problem with the way HKSAR is running right now.

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Agreed. No doubt the HKSAR and especially the CPC are all lacking in PR skills. If they have anything to learn from the west, it's hypocrisy and PR skills.

ancestral said:

Agreed. No doubt the HKSAR and especially the CPC are all lacking in PR skills. If they have anything to learn from the west, it's hypocrisy and PR skills.

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Hypocrisy? HKSAR's got plenty of that already.

Here are my thoughts on what really drove them to the streets. Contrary to popular belief, I don't think economics plays a crucial role here. I think at least 70% of their gripes are political (since those guys are students who still get paid pocket money by their parents).

1. HKers used to feel superior. But in just 10 years the table has turned. The mainlanders are now buying our houses, buying our formula, driving the prices up while bringing nothing but their supposedly uncivilized "tǔ háo" behaviour to Hong Kong. Shop owners in tourist areas and luxury brands benefit most from mainlanders, but they are the minority. The majority feel they have nothing to gain, but everything to lose. The only thing they can hold on to their superiority is "we are freer and you know you are envious of our freedom" and "our air is cleaner".

2. Through successful brainwashing, anti-China sentiment grew. In the last 10 years, I've witnessed friends' changing opinions on China. One friend who once called China his "home country" and celebrated the 2008 Olympics, is now mocking China as "強國" (strong country) and despises China. He once commented: "China is done. I saw no hope for China anymore", which is exactly the opposite opinion the world has on China. Why? Because the best-selling newspaper, Apple Daily, succeeded in propagating the dark side of China while hiding all the positive changes. Cable TV, MingPao, HKEJ and RTHK also flocked to discredit and demonize China whenever chances they have. These grievances are in turn exaggerated and broadcasted 24/7 by anti-China propaganda and the teacher association.

Oh and this brings us to the teachers' association, dominated by a number of Pan-Dem lawmakers who hold crucial positions. They are the ones who staged protests against any form of "national education" a year ago.

3. Anti-China, or should I say Anti-CPC sentiment explains why some of the HK people are okay being ruled by a British dictatorship while not okay under a democratically elected HKSAR government under China. Their fear of the CPC is beyond rational. Paranoid is the best term to describe their emotion. Here, I'm mostly talking about the 80s and 90s generations.

4. Driven by paranoid and their deep mistrust of China, combined with the lies from politicians, they feel they can severe ties with China as much as possible and still do fine because "they did okay without China before 97 anyway".

5. For the students, economy is the least of their concerns. The 80s do have their whole set of grievances such as the rising house prices and their wages not keeping up with inflation. But they fail to realize this is the plight the whole is facing and the immediate cause that led to the Arab Spring. As always, it's as easy for the devious politicians to blame this on the government as it is for the simpletons to digest.