Has China already over-taken Russia in some sections of Military Avaiation ?
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seems we are at a disconnect, if i'm allowed to make an assumption, you take the comparison as between field of knowledge, say can China's aero scientists make airplane A, or can Russian aero scientists make airplane B
what i was trying to get through was the comparison through industrial capability and experience
if you say that SAC's flanker experience was a drop in a sea, for me it is a whole ocean as Chinese Flankers is the most modern flying design at SAC's hand. If we were at year 2000, and the PLAAF say to SAC, give me your best air superiority design you can produce with such budget and such time, SAC would spit out a SinoFlanker, and J-11B it spat out. If it was a drop in the sea, we would have J-2X flying around for quite some time in Shenyang already.
The difference between having the knowledge or academic brainpower to design and going through the whole design and production cycle is huge. And the latter is what most people put off when they estimate China's capabilities.
And i wouldn't say J-20, T-50, and F-22 are 'equals' let's just say they are comparable, each with their own design goals, compromise and limitations
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here's an analogy (if i go for analogy, it means i'm quite loss at words to get my ideas across, lol) :
if a martian airline suddenly came with shitload of money and ask 3 entities, China, US/Europe, and Russia to design and build a 600 seat large passenger carrier aircraft prototype with conventional tube+wing design, the most probable result will be :
1st place : US/Europe, fly in a A380 or order from factory ASAP
2nd place : Russia, take An-124, pressurize cargo, and deck it out with seats
3rd place : China, bring scientist and engineer together, spec/requirement identification, notional design, wind tunnel models, design validation and simulation, prototype testing, certification
no worries, after all we are here to educate ourselves, and enjoy good discussions
China hands down, end of discussion
what i was trying to get through was the comparison through industrial capability and experience
if you say that SAC's flanker experience was a drop in a sea, for me it is a whole ocean as Chinese Flankers is the most modern flying design at SAC's hand. If we were at year 2000, and the PLAAF say to SAC, give me your best air superiority design you can produce with such budget and such time, SAC would spit out a SinoFlanker, and J-11B it spat out. If it was a drop in the sea, we would have J-2X flying around for quite some time in Shenyang already.
The difference between having the knowledge or academic brainpower to design and going through the whole design and production cycle is huge. And the latter is what most people put off when they estimate China's capabilities.
And i wouldn't say J-20, T-50, and F-22 are 'equals' let's just say they are comparable, each with their own design goals, compromise and limitations
-------
here's an analogy (if i go for analogy, it means i'm quite loss at words to get my ideas across, lol) :
if a martian airline suddenly came with shitload of money and ask 3 entities, China, US/Europe, and Russia to design and build a 600 seat large passenger carrier aircraft prototype with conventional tube+wing design, the most probable result will be :
1st place : US/Europe, fly in a A380 or order from factory ASAP
2nd place : Russia, take An-124, pressurize cargo, and deck it out with seats
3rd place : China, bring scientist and engineer together, spec/requirement identification, notional design, wind tunnel models, design validation and simulation, prototype testing, certification
no worries, after all we are here to educate ourselves, and enjoy good discussions
China hands down, end of discussion
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
That is not correct, without going into details Russia still hold many advantages over China that Show, but i will show you some technologies that will show you Chna is not ahead as you think.Almost all areas China is already better than Russia, you name it .... Electronic, shipbuilding CNC machine, computer, construction, infrastructure and all consumer products Chinese already ahead of Russia. The only area Russia still better than China is only in High Performance engine and some metallurgy technology. Even for satellite communications, spy satellites design, rocket design, manufacturing and quality control China is way ahead of Russia
surely you don't want to compare Chinese car to the Russian ones .... just one simple example
China is a great power no doubt about it has most technologies of Wester countries but it is not unique
Let us Show aircraft by aircraft.
China has J-20, Russia has T-50, China has Z-10, Russia has Mi-28, Ka-50 and Ka-52.
China has J-10, Russia has MiG-35.
Russia has Yak-130 china L-15, right?
J-11 is a Sukhoi copy of Su-27, J-10 has Al-31s, J-15 is a Su-33, JF-17 has RD-33s.
Now tell me where is the Tu-204 Chinese equivalent?
The Tu-22M? the Tu-160?
Now let us go about future airliners.
ARJ-21 how many have been bought by Western firms? C919 how many have been bought outside China?
Now cars? Russia has car industry, so is India or Brazil?
computers Russia has computers, so is India or Brazil
see i will show you
Brazilian computers
[video=youtube;sgZ_-02bq00]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgZ_-02bq00&feature=player_embedded[/video][video=youtube;S1_-83QGwro]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S1_-83QGwro[/video]
[video=youtube;V-Ze_jirGac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=V-Ze_jirGac[/video]
India[video=youtube;mnAnnbRahlw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mnAnnbRahlw[/video]
[video=youtube;2LqzJFDBhzw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2LqzJFDBhzw[/video]
China is not unique, in fact the BRIC have very similar technologies.
In fact T-50 represents the future BRIC coperation.
Russia has helped a lot China and the russian base of Chinese technology is ample.
Russia and Ukraine with belarus will end up making a new Soviet Union, however it will not be two superpowers, but Europe ruling while other global powers share the pie, China is the power of the east, but Brazil of South america, India and Russia will be the other powers, and the US and Europe will still be great powers.
Looking at consumer technologies to determine where a country is technologically can be a bit misleading. What technologies are available in the consumer industries is representative of consumer demands more than it is a country's technological margins. However, looking at the industrial capacity which enable them can tell us a lot. A car industry can tell us about a country's manufacturing and production abilities. A computing industry can tell us a bit more. For example, China has gotten ahead of Russia in the silicon and computing industries, which largely helps explain why their avionics have caught up so rapidly.
That's said, it's not so useful to look at where two countries currently are, but their trajectories. Technically, if Russia didn't have a long economic slump and better development policies, there's no reason why they shouldn't still be a good 20-30 years ahead of China. They started off with a heavy advantage in all forms of industrial capacity, including knowledge, manufacturing, and production. However, up until recently post Soviet Russia has seen paltry investments in infrastructure and modernization. It is to this that China owes its positive trajectory relative to Russia, and it is the key issue that needs to be (and are being) addressed if Russia wants to have future competitiveness with China.
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Have you made a deep study of what technologies are developed in the Bric countries?
i can tell you they are very similar, is not what you think, India is very impressive, Brazil too, and Russia is not like you think, China will be a great power, but Russia is not fading away, niether Europe.
Russia will continue being an aerospace power and you will see India and China will cooperate with Russia, todays projects are international, you can see it in J-10 or C919 or Airbus and Boeing, no one absolutly no one builds these days something by their own.
L-15 has Ukranian engine, Russian consultants helped the program JF-17 is a joint pakistani project, and Russia started already delivering Su-32, Su-30s, Mi-28s, Sukhois superjets, Russia will continue as a geat power and they have all the technologies China or the US has and wait a decade more and you will See the South american Giant or India show their prowess, already Brazil is the third largest civil aircraft maker outstripping both Russia and China, India makes helicopters an jet engines and probably something you do not know, Brazil makes jet engines experimental now but in one decade or two will be operational.[video=youtube;TI1u9cVRmy8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1u9cVRmy8[/video]
Mostly just the silicon industry and the macroeconomic positions of them. China's semiconductor fabrication and design moved ahead of Russia's a few years ago, and India's having trouble starting theirs (though all three have excellent computer science). Having that reliable domestic silicon industry is what's helped China move ahead in avionics.
While I don't doubt Russia's potential and capability in aerospace, what holds them back is their aging facilities and infrastructure. One of the biggest problems with Russian aerospace products today is not capability but reliability. For example, China found the life expectancy standards of Russian turbofans was unsatisfactory, and this was likely due to materials limitations and production quality controls. They're recently made moves to address all that, so we'll see if that pays off. None of Russia's current technological abilities matter if they don't have a healthy macroeconomy that can materialize all their technological know-how.
If we're talking successes you can't simply look at anecdotes, but trends. The truth is Russia has always been able to assist other countries with aerospace, but they stagnated on innovation and development for nearly two decades. Knowledge isn't the limiting factor for them, but their facilities and their economy up until recently have been. Russia and China have different bottlenecks right now.
I will have to dispute with you that Russia does not have all the technological capabilities of the US (nor does China for that matter). The US is actually very ahead on all fronts. We just don't see it because they haven't yet found demand for half the stuff they've already researched and developed. Again, I caution using technology available to consumers to gauge where a country is technologically.
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
look i will tell you a few realities. in technology, Russia is moving ahead. as fast as China and in electronics and computers China is only leader in computer electronics items sales among the Bric but still way behind the US.
Russia has always have computers since soviet times, but 20 years aggo Russia was in disarray, today is not the same situation in software, india is far ahead of China, in most technologies you can say the BRIC are more or less at the same level.
What happens of all these Nations china is the one that has developed more international commerce, but Russia is not behind, see it like these, the international space station uses Russia as the nation to bring people and goods, its computer development is good, in fact boeing designs in Russia aircrat like B787.
Russia is not behind and MS-21 is a proof and Sukhoi Super Jet or Ka-60 other.
If you do any preliminary research it'll become obvious just how funding starved the Russian electronics industry really is. That is never a good sign.
It's funny you mention the Russian space indusry, as Russia just had another rocket launch that failed. Ironically it was a Chinese mars probe that was lost.
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India leading in software i.e far ahead of China, is an anecdote Mig-29, but not necessarily true, in fact India is facing pressure from China's IT sourcing too.
There are so many Indian doctors as there are so many Indian programmers, should i say India is a world leader in medicine too, far ahead from China?
But India has a very strong IT sector nevertheless
Brazil is indeed moving fast too, like Embraer with the KC-390 and Super Tucano, but to say the BRICs are overall on par is not true, even more if we are speaking of military/civil aviation, India and Brazil are nowhere at the level of China. India's last hope is MMRCA ToT, if they still manage to screw this up, their indigenous growth will be seriously stunted.
and Sukhoi Superjet 100, it's modern, it's good, and it's selling
but Soviet era, it's child play, and that is Russia level now? i don't think promoting the Sukhoi Superjet is a good example of Russia's progress, rather a sign of stagnation, and just like the Comac C919 all the innards are made by American and Europeans
all the good stuffs Russia has now is leftover from Soviet era prowess, if Russia can not get out of the stagnation and innovate, there will be nothing left
There are so many Indian doctors as there are so many Indian programmers, should i say India is a world leader in medicine too, far ahead from China?
But India has a very strong IT sector nevertheless
Brazil is indeed moving fast too, like Embraer with the KC-390 and Super Tucano, but to say the BRICs are overall on par is not true, even more if we are speaking of military/civil aviation, India and Brazil are nowhere at the level of China. India's last hope is MMRCA ToT, if they still manage to screw this up, their indigenous growth will be seriously stunted.
and Sukhoi Superjet 100, it's modern, it's good, and it's selling
but Soviet era, it's child play, and that is Russia level now? i don't think promoting the Sukhoi Superjet is a good example of Russia's progress, rather a sign of stagnation, and just like the Comac C919 all the innards are made by American and Europeans
all the good stuffs Russia has now is leftover from Soviet era prowess, if Russia can not get out of the stagnation and innovate, there will be nothing left
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